180. USAP Needs to Enforce The Rules Better for the Paddle Market

[00:00:03] Alright, what's up guys? We are back with another podcast episode. This week we're going to be talking a lot about governing bodies and the governing in the sport of pickleball. There will be other things throughout it but that is definitely going to be the main topic. There's gonna be, we're gonna talk about one paddle this week, that's the Luz Cannon XPP, the new foam one and a few other random things but buckle in, strap up, gonna be a conversation that probably a lot of you don't know.

[00:00:30] We don't really care about but I think it's a conversation that needs to be had and I think more people than just us should be talking about it because we'll just get to it. I'm not even gonna go into it right now. But first, we'll go with the question of the week. We were gonna throw this in here this week and then I was like man we're already gonna have a three hour pod so let's just maybe save it for the next week. But the question of the week and this was the thing going kind of all around is should taunting be a thing at the pro level?

[00:00:58] Flash screaming. Flash screaming. I mean just I think it's more about taunting. Screaming just got mixed in with it. No, I mean they're both part of the same topic in my opinion. Sure. They're in the same realm. You guys let us know down in the comments and maybe that'll be what we talk about next week. I think some people do use screaming as taunting. Well yeah, you definitely can. I think it just started about taunting. That's what like the article sparks this whole thing. Oh yeah. So let us know down in the comments.

[00:01:22] And then a few quick little updates for you guys. First, I did not realize this. This has not happened with a UPA paddle yet. But so something that a lot of people might not know is that with USAP when you submit a paddle, you have to submit it with the stamp. So companies are often buying tons of paddles with their stamps before it's approved but they have to for the test.

[00:01:48] And with UPAA, they actually don't let you put the stamp on the paddle until it's approved. So like you shouldn't have any paddles with the seal until it's approved. So anytime I see a UPAA paddle with the stamp on it, I'm like okay, we're good to go. And I haven't really seen anyone not do that yet. That's the way it should be. Yeah, exactly. I agree. I agree. But then I realized that Sens Atra paddle that we were talking about like two, three weeks ago, it's apparently not on the approved list yet even though it had a stamp on it.

[00:02:17] I was made aware of that just very recently. So that is my bad. That's on me for not doing better research on that. So just know that if you were considering that paddle or kind of interested in it, currently it has no approval. So just be aware. I'm sure it'll get approval at some point but you know whenever we get one that is exactly what was submitted, then we'll know. But yeah, I just felt bad for screwing that up. Are they going for UPAA approval on that paddle? Yeah, only UPA approval to my knowledge. Makes sense.

[00:02:45] I mean maybe now with the USAP spin test, they could but do both. But yeah. Okay, next up the hybrid loco too. By the time you're watching this should already be out. It might even be sold out because the day we're recording this is the day it came out. But now the elongated and the hybrid are both approved ready to go. I'm going to keep talking about the wide body till I freaking get it. That bread and butter got us good. I see a reel on Instagram and he's holding the wide body and he's like, I got a big announcement. Doug's like, got a big announcement.

[00:03:14] I'm like, oh, the wide body, let's go. And then he's like, not this ugly thing. The hybrid's approved. I was like, you got a freaking kidding me. I was like, come on, dude. Gotcha. Yeah, that was, I got baited. I got rage baited real good on that one. April Fool's in October. Yeah, that's not fair. So anyways, if you were interested in the hybrid, that'll be, that'll be up now. And then, okay. So I had this conversation this week. This isn't even pickleball related, but I got to know. And I'm sorry. I realized guys that I ask you guys to comment so many things throughout the podcast.

[00:03:44] Sometimes it's like five things. I'm like, Hey, here's the question of the week. Hey, let us know what you think. I do it too much, but I have to know the answer to this one. Because I was made aware this week that there are people that don't have an inner monologue in their head. Like they can't hear themselves talking in their own head. And when I was made aware of this, I was dumbfounded because I have such an inner monologue running in my head. Like it doesn't ever stop.

[00:04:11] The second I wake up, I can hear myself talking to myself in my head. Like, Hey, here's the work you didn't get done yesterday. Here's the paddles you're going to hit today. Oh, you forgot to do this chore. We should get that done before we start. Like if I'm just sitting on my own, I'm, I'm talking in my head. I'm playing out like a million scenarios. 24 seven. I don't know how it's possible to not have an inner monologue. We found one friend so far. Two. We only debated with one. Yeah. One friend who was like, I don't have that. I like, I just see like visuals or thinking concepts.

[00:04:40] And I'm like, how, what do you mean you thinking concept? It makes no sense. What do you mean? You can't hear your own voice in your head. That doesn't make sense. When you're listening to someone talk in a conversation, I'm hearing the things you're saying. And as I'm listening, I'm talking in my own head, building my response. Yes. People that don't do it just doesn't make, how do you even think? It doesn't make sense. I mean, dude, I have a whole council of people in my head talking to each other. That's what I'm saying. All the time.

[00:05:09] I can have like two of me like debating in my head. Yep. So if there is anyone who listens to this pod and is like that, I'd love to know because I don't know how it's possible. Yeah. I really, Isaac and I are convinced that when people say they don't have it, they just don't understand the question. Yeah. Like, I just don't know. I don't know. You guys can let us know down below, but it blew my mind. I just, I had to bring that up on a podcast because I need to find more people like this. Mm-hmm. Okay. Let's talk. We have only one paddle to talk about this week.

[00:05:39] That is the Luz Cannon XPP foam paddle. See if this one will stand up. I might even just hold it. We're just going to hold it because it won't stand. All right. So this is, it's called the Cannon XPP, but it is foam. It's not a Gen 3. It's $179 before a discount code. Swing weight is 120.46. Twist weight is 5.9. Has a one year warranty. And yeah, we'll just talk about how it played.

[00:06:06] Isaac hit it a bit yesterday, and then we also hit it both this morning just to get some thoughts alongside the regular Cannon. I guess I'll go first, and then we can kind of get into it. First of all, Luz is like such an interesting company to me because I feel like they really hit a home run with the Inferno and the original Cannon. The Cannon, because it was a really cheap Gen 3, so that's awesome.

[00:06:34] You know, at the time, Gen 3s were on the more expensive side. And then the Inferno was just so different. There wasn't really anything like it at the time. I think, I'm pretty sure the Inferno was the paddle that is why Thonky became a word. Yeah. Yeah. So Thonky was generated because of the Inferno. Yeah. So it's like those two paddles, I feel like, are what put Luz on the map. And then I just kind of feel like ever since then, they really haven't had anything. Like the glider is okay. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[00:07:04] I think it was a fine paddle. But then they've missed on Durable Grit like four different times. They change the name every time. The Inferno 2, maybe an upgrade to some people, downgrade to others. Then their naming schemes are confusing. Frozen Inferno, the different colorways that all felt different. It's kind of, they've kind of been like Honolulu in a different way. But they just like throw stuff and see what sticks. Yeah. You know, they're just constantly putting stuff out there and it just feels really random.

[00:07:34] Yeah. At the moment. And unfortunately, they really haven't had anything stick since the original canon Inferno. Yeah, I agree. So it's just been kind of weird to watch. But anyways, calling this the canon is interesting to me just because I feel like the canon has been known as their, hey, this is our budget. This is our Gen 3. That is what this name is. So I just, their naming scheme consistently, I feel like it's confusing.

[00:08:04] Like I almost feel like this should have just been called something else. Yeah. Especially if you're going to almost double the price. Yeah. And kind of just change everything except for it's completely blacked out. Yeah. It's definitely trying to be a different paddle. Maybe they just want to get away from having a $100 paddle on their roster. Yeah. I don't know if they're keeping the Honeycomb canon. Do you know? It's on the website right now that I haven't heard if they're planning to get rid of it. You know, if they plan on cutting it out, then I can understand just wanting to get away

[00:08:33] from having a $100 option. Even though that is like a popular thing. Maybe it just wasn't really doing well for them. But it is a little odd trying to rebrand and rename it the same paddle. When it just plays very differently. Completely different. I just feel like if you keep something in the same family, either it's got to be similar with like a smaller upgrade. Like imagine, you know, I think it'd be fine if they just had a durable grit on the original canon. You want to keep that in the same line? Okay. That makes sense.

[00:09:03] Kind of like what bread and butter did with the Loco 2. But otherwise, I just feel like they could have named this something entirely different. I mean, this is like what I talked about last week where if the Loco 2 was completely changed and completely different from the original, like why even call it the Loco at that point? It's a different paddle, you know? Same thing with this. Yep. One of the claims to fame with this paddle is it seems to have a much better grit on it. One, I mean, just touching it. It's definitely rougher.

[00:09:31] I think on John's test with the canon, it seemed to not be wearing down like the other ones. I don't recall if it hit tier one exactly. But in terms of grit performance from a canon, it seemed to be doing well. So maybe they finally got the grit part of that figured out, which would be good because I mean, I don't know who has made more attempts than was and had quite a few misses. True. But yeah, so potentially good on the grit.

[00:10:00] We won't know because obviously it takes a lot of real world testing. So I'm not going to make any claims there. But overall, I mean, I guess you can give me your thoughts and then I can give you some thoughts. You hit this a little bit more than I have. Um, yes. I mean, like we kind of alluded to earlier, it is so drastically different from the original canon. The original canon, honeycomb, pretty light. Uh, Gen 3, super stiff.

[00:10:29] Every time I hit one, I'm blown away at how stiff that paddle is. And then hitting this initially without weight, I was like, wow, this is also really stiff. But I think we kind of figured out it's, it is stiff, but it's more so that it's, it's pretty dense. Yeah. It's not the Gen 3 version of the canon is, is pretty hollow and stiff.

[00:10:51] Um, so the sweet spot felt really small off center shots were very harsh feeling and just very dead off a lot of the parts of the paddle. So I didn't, I didn't love it without weight. It was fine, but I, I probably, I would not be using it anytime soon. Yeah. Then we threw some, uh, slice sliders on there. Do you remember which, uh, weight? I believe it was the five grams.

[00:11:17] I think it was five grams at like three and nine and completely changed the feel. It went from feeling like a pretty dense and almost stiff, uh, foam paddle to pretty thonky, more hollow, very much more springy. Um, and I, I much preferred it with weight, but still didn't really play that great with it. I think the sweet spot expanded a little bit, but not, not compared to some of the other,

[00:11:47] uh, foam paddles that we have. And so I just, I wasn't, I wasn't vibing with it very well. Now I will say I got the stats with the weight. Yeah. What is your best guess? We go twist weight first. Cause this one actually surprised me quite a bit. Oh, I mean twist weight. If it was stock at five, nine, and then 10 grams total at three and nine, I'm going to have to say, I'm going to say six, nine, three was the twist weight. Six, nine, three. Yeah. Higher. Higher.

[00:12:18] One more guess. Seven, one, six. Higher still. What's that? Seven, two, five. Seven, two, five. Wow. Yeah. I didn't expect that big of a jump. Seven, two, five twist weight. And then swing weight. Okay, man. On swing weight at three, nine on a paddle that's already this heavy. 10 grams. I think I'm going, I think I'm going one 27. Higher. One 30. Nine point nine. No wonder. I mean, I was complaining to Isaac after he put the weight on. And I was like, dude, this is literally Thor's hammer.

[00:12:47] And he just kept looking at me going, well, maybe if you weren't so weak. And I was like, dude, so one 29, that's really heavy. One 29 is heavy. Yeah. I mean, it was even, it was heavier than what I was even expecting. I knew, I mean, obviously I was kind of joking around. I knew it was definitely on the heavier side, but that was more than what I was expecting. I was expecting one 26, one 27, you know, not like insane, but yeah, like one 30 as pretty high. Yeah. But definitely just much improved. I would not recommend it without weight, but if you do put weight on it and that was

[00:13:16] just one weight setup, I think there, there are probably better, more optimal weight setups. I would put on it if we had more time. Um, but it, I, just from that one test, I could tell it, it needs weight to be in my opinion, a playable paddle. Yeah. The interesting thing is it is super gritty. Uh, it feels very rough, but it just felt really inconsistent for me. I don't know if it's just been me in the last couple of days, um, or just this paddle, but

[00:13:44] the spin that I could generate and shots that I was hitting were just felt inconsistent. Inconsistent. I'd have some that would dip like crazy and I could hit rockets and then one that would be in the bottom of the net. And then I'd make a small adjustment and then I'm like hitting it over your head. Uh, so I felt like sometimes I could grab the ball and throw it wherever I wanted. Uh, kind of like how I feel with the loco, um, or any of these other like super gritty paddles.

[00:14:12] And then some where it just felt like a Z five and it just slipped down the side of the face. So I don't know what was up with that. Again, it could be me. I might've just been off last couple of days, but I haven't really felt that inconsistent with the paddle in a while. Yeah. Bouncing between like this and the Jade this morning. I don't feel like I noticed anything crazy abnormal. I mean, in the spin test, it was, I think in the like 2300s. So it was fine. Uh, it doesn't feel insane to me.

[00:14:41] Nothing stood out as like immediately bad. Like I didn't really feel like I had any like issue with slipping or anything like that, but I am curious what that, what that was for you. Um, yeah. So yeah, I don't know. It was just kind of like seemed fine. And then I think for me with the performance, I definitely could see what you were seeing with the sweet spot. Cause there were certain areas, especially on like resets or taking a dink out of the air where I was just like, man, like why did the ball die?

[00:15:08] And then other times I was like, yeah, the sweet spot seems fine. Like once I feel like there was weight on it, I didn't really have any complaints anymore. Kind of felt fine, but I would never play the paddle that heavy. Like that's just way too heavy for me. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I just, I think there are other foam paddles that just had a better sweet spot. Like I agree. Well, so particularly stock, I felt this and I haven't felt this with a paddle in a while where the sweet spot to slightly. And I don't mean like you're hitting the edge.

[00:15:38] I mean, slightly off center was so different that when I was hitting volleys, say you're hitting drops or drives at me, I would hit one slightly off center and it would maybe get to the center, like middle of the court. And then I'd, I'd hit one crisp, not really put much more into it. And it feels like I was hitting it to the back wall. Yeah. So the, the, the power range difference between hitting it crisp in the center and slightly

[00:16:03] off was so different that I just felt like I couldn't place the ball where I wanted it. Yeah. It was just, again, too inconsistent for me. Yeah. And maybe that's part of why I feel that way with drives is maybe it's just a sweet spot issue and not a grit issue where I'm just hitting it crisper on some and it launches much faster and I'm making an adjustment to a shot that was slightly off center. Could be. So maybe it's a sweet spot issue, not a grit issue. Yeah. I just, it wasn't, it wasn't for me. Yeah.

[00:16:31] I think my overall impression of it from like, you know, that hour or so was just kind of if the grit is great, that's awesome. But in terms of foam paddles, it really just didn't do anything that I thought was particularly impressive. Yeah. It was just kind of like, okay, cool. It's almost to me, like this grit should be on everything else they had. Put it on the original cannon, put it on the glider, put it on the inferno.

[00:16:57] And it's like, if the grit's good, then that's all those paddles really needed to be a little bit better. Yeah. So to me, it's like, why did we put the good grit on, I don't know, one of their like more mid paddles, I would say. Like, I didn't hate it. I just, as I was hitting it, there was nothing where I went, yeah, this is cool. You know, it's just kind of like me, another foam paddle. Right. Yeah. That's how I felt too.

[00:17:23] And it's at a price range where it's like, it's in between things where if you jump up a little bit in price, you have a pretty big pool of really good foam paddles that you can get, or you can go the complete opposite direction and go to like the $100 paddles and there's still good options there. Maybe not the best because there isn't really any good durable grits yet at $100. So there is some trade off there. So I don't know, it's just at a, it's at a weird, weird price point in my opinion. I just, I'm not in love with it. Yeah.

[00:17:53] I'd say similar. Who knows? Maybe it just needs like break in or something. Maybe it needs a different weight setup, but it was just. I definitely think I could improve it with, with weight. But if it's already at a point where I don't think a weight setup that's even more optimal could get it to a place where it's as good as some of the other foam paddles, even stock. Sure. Like I would take a stock loco sweet spot over whatever weight setup I could put on that. Yeah. I, I think I would agree with that as well.

[00:18:23] Um, yeah. So just kind of an interesting one. I'll keep you guys updated if we get some more time on it, but definitely nothing particularly stand out. Like, I feel like the only people that I'd even come close to being like, Oh, maybe you should consider this as if you were just already someone who played Luz paddles and you were like, Hey, I just want a Luz paddle that has more durable grit. But even then it's so different from their other paddles. This one UPA approved, uh, USA.

[00:18:48] I, the model we are holding does not have a UPA stamp on it, but I don't, I haven't looked at their website. Maybe they have another version. That's what I was, I was wondering. Cause I noticed there's only one stamp on there. Yeah. So yeah, that's our thoughts on the, uh, the cannon there. Yeah. Okay. Before we get into the governing bodies, I had like another thing I wanted to talk about cause this has just been kind of on my mind lately.

[00:19:11] And the question is, should, should bad batches quote unquote be a real excuse for companies anymore? Because I feel like bad batch is just the get out of jail free card for every company right now. Like let's list off some companies enhance with the last turbo. They were like, Hey, the one, all the reviewers got bad batch. We'll fix it. And then, you know, we get our other ones, same issue.

[00:19:38] Then RPM, I guess they haven't really said bad batch necessarily, but some of them are maracas out of the box. Some have the edges where it's like slanted down over the EVA foam and that's just weird and probably shouldn't be happening. And then some people are getting paddles that disbond that I would say is less of a batch issue. And that's more of just, we've seen MPP foam paddles do that. Uh, so that's not necessarily new. The boomstick when last year in my review, I was like, my edge guard came loose. And then Selkirk was like, yep.

[00:20:07] Gonna make sure that was just a couple of bad batches. Make sure that's not going to happen anymore. Boomstick was like synonymous with loose edge guard. It was practically guaranteed. Yeah. I mean, so it was just like, okay, that didn't get fixed. And then another one, the Vatic Pro Vsoul Tour with the grit. I just feel like bad batch is such a cop out. And there are, I think, genuine times where you could have a real bad batch.

[00:20:33] But what happens now is companies can just go, my bad, factory screwed that up. Don't worry about it on the next one. And then people kind of go, can we trust that? So I have an interesting take slash thought on this. So I agree. I think it is the biggest cop out for companies right now. And I don't think it's a good excuse. But from a consumer perspective, I think when you look at brands, I think a big part of it

[00:21:00] and what goes into some of the cost element of paddles and how big a brand is, because we know how China works, where if you do not have boots on the ground monitoring these people at factors, they will cut corners in every way possible. And that's where you start getting quote unquote bad batches because they're using the wrong glue. They're using less glue per paddle to save money. They're, you know, any way they can to save money, not necessarily try and screw you over,

[00:21:27] but it's going to affect you in one way or another. That's the downside of being a smaller brand because you don't have people monitoring the factory all the time. So that's the downside of picking a cheaper paddle. And that's from a consumer's perspective. You just have to understand that. But these bigger brands like Yola, as much as I don't like what there was core crushing issues. Some of that was on them because they were intentionally compressing the cores.

[00:21:51] But I think Yola is now probably one of the better brands in terms of, of batch consistency. I would agree. And so that's because they monitor their factory way heavier than other brands. And so I think part of that has to go into thought of, am I going to spend 300 plus dollars? It doesn't feel good, but you're going to get higher consistency. Now that's not always true because some of these other brands like look at RPM or Salkirk, super expensive, still having issues.

[00:22:20] So it's not, it doesn't go, it doesn't work for every single company. The only, the only saving grace, and I've said this before, and I still feel like it's not a good excuse is that at least Salkirk's warranty process was so fast or so easy. Like you didn't have to mail the paddle till your new one showed up, but even still like still annoying. Yeah. You shouldn't be like, Hey, well we have a great warranty. So we'll just fix that. Like ideally you just don't have the problem to begin with, you know? Yep. No, I agree.

[00:22:47] So these issues still happen with even big brands, but I think it's, it's less common the bigger a brand gets. I think they, they monitor their factories more. They have more funds to put people there to keep track of these things versus, you know, RPM's getting bigger, but it's James and Marwan. It's two people. I know they're in China all the time, but again, it's only two people. How much can you really do? Are you always there watching these guys? Probably not. Right. So, or, you know, look at Vatic.

[00:23:17] It's like one guy. Yep. So there's only so much you can do the smaller a brand gets. Yeah, I agree. And I just, I feel like there are so many things that need to happen. Like either better QC checking or like you said, having someone at the factory, but that costs money. So, you know, that with some of the more budget brands, that might mean the price goes up or you have to accept that this type of behavior can happen.

[00:23:44] But I mean, over the years, I have heard this bad batch excuse so many times. And I feel like as someone who reviews paddles, I'm getting so sick of it. And this is why another reason I have started just buying some of the paddles myself is because if I buy it and I just get it, like at least you can't tell me, oh, sorry, we only screwed up the reviewer batch. Because if the one I got that screwed up that I bought, well, then that means you screwed up all the consumer units. Yeah.

[00:24:13] So it's like, I'm just tired of the, oh, you found an issue. Hang on. We'll just send you another one. You wasted two weeks of your time. Do it on this one now. Yeah. It's like. What's funny, like if you think about it, if you think of any product, you can, you find the name brand version on whatever site. And then you go to Timu, no one thinks, oh yeah, the Timu one that's at 50% less is going to be just as high quality and as good a consistency as this other one.

[00:24:41] But in pickleball, things get chopped half the price or more and people are like, oh, it's got to be great. Yeah. Right. I mean, sometimes that can be true, but I just think when you go down that much in price, there's bound to be some level of consistency issues. Yeah, for sure. I think companies just need to demand better from the factories. I think you've got to have people there. I just, I don't know. I'm tired of consumers being the guinea pigs. I'm tired of reviewers being the guinea pig. It's just like. Shouldn't be that way. Yeah. I mean, I'm just imagining.

[00:25:11] And now look, I'm not saying that QC needs to be 100% perfect and there's never a paddle that is defective. That is an unreasonable thought. I'm not saying, oh, you know, no paddle could ever possibly have a loose edge guard. But when it happens in mass, like the boomstick did, it's like that is not. We are seeing certain issues come up way too frequently and often as they should. They shouldn't be as often as they are. Yeah. Yep. I completely agree. So I don't know. I hope that that gets better. It's just just frustrating.

[00:25:41] I don't know. I just been on my mind lately where I just feel like it's, oh, yeah, we'll fix it on the next one. It's like, OK, cool. That's great. But also we got burned once. It's like, how do I know you're not going to screw it up twice? You know? Yeah. I mean, I can't say for certain, but I think a lot of brands just order a full shipment of paddles way too soon before actually doing any amount of testing on paddles. And then it's like, OK, well, we've got 4,000 paddles. We can't just, you know, not sell them. Yeah.

[00:26:11] So that's where you get these bad batches and they just sell them anyways. Yep. So, yeah, that's just some thoughts I had on that. I hope that stops being a thing because it's really frustrating. And look, I don't even think the brands like it, right? They don't want issues with their paddles. Like, it's bad for them. You know, if like, like, look at the VATIC. The VESOL tour probably lost a lot of steam that it could have had for the end of the year versus if the grit had been good when it shipped. Yeah. You know? And people are probably going to be more hesitant to buy the next version. Yeah.

[00:26:40] So it's not like, I don't think the brands are happy about it either. I just think more, maybe things need to move a little slower because clearly moving at the speed we're moving at now is not working. Yeah, for sure. I mean, VATIC's not happy about it. Enhance isn't happy about it. But at the same time, I think part of it is also their duty to make sure that these things are in order and not having these issues before they start shipping these things out. I agree. So part of it is on them.

[00:27:10] Yep. All right. Let's move on. Get ready. Buckle in. Strap in, California. If you're stuck in traffic right now, boy, do we have a podcast for you. If you fall asleep and get in an accident, it is not our fault. Yes. We are not liable. Okay. Governing bodies, USAP versus UPAA. There's, I feel like a lot of things that happened in the last week, two weeks that sparked why I want to talk about this. One of the main things, which I will try and leave all of this linked below.

[00:27:40] And I would highly recommend that you read all of it because I am not going to read it all on this podcast. But I think it will help make some of what we're about to talk about make more sense. So the first one was an article released, I believe on the UPAA website. And it was basically talking about a lot of different things. But the gist was, hey, look, USAP has not been doing a good job. Here are all the reasons we think they have not been doing a good job.

[00:28:09] And, you know, it cites some stuff like the owl. And there's a lot of like interesting things in there that if all of that is like entirely accurate, which I've heard it from a lot of different places, but, you know, it's never really been confirmed, if all of it's accurate, it's not a good look for USAP at all with owl stuff. And then so at first, it kind of just sounds like as you're reading it, you're like, this is feels just like a USAP hit piece, which you're like, that doesn't feel very good.

[00:28:34] But then the article kind of concludes with UPA saying, like, look, we should be merging, like we should just become one governing body because it is problematic being two governing bodies for a number of reasons. Now, whether you want to say one person is right, or one person's wrong, or these guys are more bad and these guys are more good, not really the point. I think we can all agree that it would be better for everyone if we had one standard that was followed. Paddles would be less confusing.

[00:29:02] Manufacturers wouldn't have to spend as much money on testing. It wouldn't take them as long, probably, to produce some of these paddles. Consumers don't have to worry about what paddle they're taking to a tournament. Actually, tournament I played a couple weeks ago. So the rule was USAP paddles only, no UPAA paddles. And in my mind, with the way the testing currently sits, that's like one of the dumbest things I feel like I've heard because there are more USAP paddles that are problematic than UPAA paddles. Yeah.

[00:29:30] So to me, I'm like, okay, if you want to, you know, say, oh, USAP, you know, they do it right. I'm like, no, the UPAA paddles. And there were still people playing with UPAA paddles because that's how much it doesn't matter right now. Like, yes, if you want to talk about a while ago, like a couple years ago when it was just the 3S and rules were all over the place and everything was wonky. Sure. I'd say back then, you know what? Let's maybe not have these UPAA paddles around. But currently with how testing sits, I just don't think that's accurate anymore.

[00:29:59] I also think it started to matter less because some of these like local events and stuff are just not strict enough on their rules. Yes. The amount of times I've gone to a local tournament and they're like, USAP only, six different people are playing with UPAA paddles. I'm like, this is ridiculous. If you're going to have rules, enforce them. And so part of the reason why it's not as big of a problem is because I feel like no one ever enforced rules. Yeah. And also I just don't feel like there were paddles that were problematic.

[00:30:26] Like, I don't know since UPA has had proper governing rules that they've had a paddle that was like, whoa, this shouldn't be on the market. The only time it was like pretty problematic was very early on when like the 3S was around. Yep. It's like, okay. The amount of times I played local events where it was USAP only and there were six people playing with 3Ss. I'm like, okay, this is not all right. And then also it was weird at the time too because it was like the 3S but then also the mod was still around for USAP.

[00:30:55] So it was like, what even matters here anymore? That was a tragic period in pickleball history. Yeah, I'd agree. So yeah, that article sparked a lot of this thinking as well as just having conversations with a lot of different people in the industry. Some brands, some other people, reviewers, just like kind of going back and forth on like what is happening in the industry right now. And then there are just some paddles that are like starting to emerge that seem a little problematic. Some more than others.

[00:31:23] So it's just like got me thinking a lot about the state of the industry right now, which is why I want to talk about this. But overall, I think we can all agree one governing body would be better than two. I just don't think we need two. In an ideal world. In an ideal world. So let's go over just some history here. Um, we'll start with USAP's history a little bit. So in my opinion, USAP has just pretty much always done a poor job at policing the paddle

[00:31:53] market. I mean, since I have been in pickleball, there have been paddles that were a problem. Electrum was like the first one I ever heard of having a paddle that was too gritty. Then the next big one after that was the carbon gate, which is also insane to think about because those things paddle would not even hold a candle to the spin you can put on butter smooth. In comparison, it was like there was that big issue with carbon and then that was resolved.

[00:32:20] And then all of a sudden everyone just went to the moon with grit. Yeah. And it just didn't. And it was like, okay, you punish them and no one else got punished for this. And carbon took a big hit for that. I mean, for a while, if you were using any carbon, even after things were resolved, Oh, it's that cheater paddle. Yeah. People would be making fun of you or they'd be like, oh, you can't use that. I mean, and people were confused about it. I mean, it was a nightmare for carbon. Yeah. And yeah, that was bad. Yep. So it just USAP.

[00:32:50] Yes, there have been paddles they've cracked down on. Like, look, I'm not saying they've never done anything. There is the Vatac Oni. There was the gearbox after PB core. There was the Gen 3. Like, there are paddles that they have acted on. But the problem is that it feels so oddly selective. Like, why did you choose these ones, but then ignore all of these other ones? And what always cracks me up about it is I feel like USAP, at least in like when I went to their media day thing, they act like, yeah, you know, we're looking at it.

[00:33:20] We see them. We're acting on it. We're handling it. And then I'm like, well, then why do all the reviewers feel like you're not handling it? And why do all the brands I'm talking to also go, my competitors over here are getting away cheating. And I feel like the only way I can be relevant is by cheating. Like, this isn't just like a conversation that comes up. Well, dude, think about like any of the gearbox paddles in the last like two years. Yeah. Right.

[00:33:47] Gearbox has always been a company that has been within the rules of grit. Yeah. They've always had smoother grit than their competitors. Legal grit. You know, they do not want to get punished. And then something like the speed up tide comes out where, bro, you will cut your fingers on. If you rub your knuckles, scratch them across the pad, you will rip skin off your finger. Yep. So how on earth is that fair? And well, that and, you know, the USA or the tide, the speed up tide is on the they have

[00:34:17] like a little area on their website now, USAP, where it goes, this paddles under investigation. Dude, that thing's been under investigation for I don't even know how long. And there's no news on anything happening to it. Same thing with like the proton peacock. So it's like, yeah, well, what happened? Did and and if you're going to say that, OK, hey, we told them they had to tone it down for future ones. Well, what does that do for the paddles that are already in the wild? And how is that already? Yeah. Already at Pickleball Central, you could buy online. Yeah.

[00:34:45] And then it's like, OK, with carbon, why did they get slapped on the wrist and told all their paddles had to be removed? But then not that doesn't happen to other people. That was like the first time paddles had to start having serial numbers, right? When carbon gate happened, they started putting serial numbers on other trials to track their batches, track everything. Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's really bad. I feel like USAP. And this is me just speculating based on my perspective of things, doesn't really do a great job at one quickly investigating and communicating with companies when there

[00:35:15] are issues or when the community brings up issues. But UPA does a much better job directly when testing is happening, communicating with brands when they find issues and actually stopping those issues before they hit the market. Yeah. Where USAP is like, all right, everyone go through. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, there's issues. And then they never get fixed. Where UPA is like stopping people at the door before they get in and not letting those issues

[00:35:45] get to the market. Well, and I think we'll get to also why I think that is, because I think there are a couple of things that I really think if USAP just made these switches, they'd be in the same boat as UPA, but I'll circle back to that. And another thing that just enforces the whole grit thing. I think it was this year at some point, John did some testing and he tested 40 different paddle brands under the same like guidelines that USAP does with the stare at and grit and 38 of the paddles he tested out of 40 failed. Yeah.

[00:36:13] When you have two brands out of 40 that are failing, like I think that's a pretty clear sign that something was wrong with the market and how you're policing it. Right. And now look, John is not USAP is not testing in the same exact environment, but I'm just going to go ahead and guess that if John gave all those paddles over to USAP, a good chunk of them are probably failing. Okay. Like that is a problem that shouldn't be happening. Like it should be flipped.

[00:36:40] It should be, oh, there's two paddles that got caught, maybe skirt in the rules a little bit and the rest 38 were good. That's what it should be. Yep. When it gets so bad that like it feels like everyone's doing it, that's a problem. It feels like with USAP that their testing methods and investigations are too slow to keep up with technology and people being able to find loopholes in testing. Yeah.

[00:37:07] So people are able to game their testing faster than they're able to change things and fix it. So that's how you just have this massive flood of paddles that should not be out there. Like for example, when the pro power elongator was out there, that was a problem for a while. Yeah. And that one was tricky because there just was no rule around it. So it's like, okay, what do we now make? I mean, that's literally what happened. That's what I'm saying is the tech evolved quicker than their testing versus I feel like

[00:37:33] UPA now is doing a much better job at keeping up with how paddle technology is developing to make sure that everything stays on a pretty level playing field. We haven't had anything in the UPA world like spike up with a massive problematic issue. We haven't had something on tour where pros are like, oh my gosh, I can't deal with this. Yeah. You know, like we haven't had that since the three gen three. Yeah.

[00:37:59] You know, gen three and three S were probably like, I'd say the last ones where people were kind of like losing their minds. Yeah. And then everyone, everyone in the market caught up. Yeah. And then no one could complain. Exactly. But yeah, it just, I feel like the problem has always been the, the way they handle it. One, it's not very well communicated. USAP is not good at communicating with the public. And even when they have communicated, people are just confused. Like I remember what the chorus fire, it got delisted because there was a miscommunication

[00:38:26] and they forgot to test PB core, even though it got the approved stamps. Like how does that happen? And then how is it fair to the brand that they got the stamp probably ordered their paddles? And then you're like, yeah, we got to delist that. But then you're looking at all these other paddles in the market that are skirting rules and going, yeah, we'll just leave those alone. Don't worry about that. Don't look over there. You know, like that's, to me, that is not okay. So it all comes down to why have rules if you don't enforce them?

[00:38:54] What's the point of a speed limit on the highway if you don't enforce the speed limit? There is no point. And that is what I feel like the whole entire problem with USAP has always been. You have rules, but you don't lay the hammer down when people are breaking your rules. So I just think so many issues would be solved if they would do that. And now, you know, there's, well, one with the new spin test, I'm glad they're doing that. I think that's good. I think that's the direction we needed to go. I don't think the stair was a great way of testing for spin output.

[00:39:24] But now the problem is, okay, if there's a paddle that's problematic, at least with roughness in the past, I mean, you and I on a podcast could touch something like a speed up tide and go, yeah, I don't know how this made it through. But now what? There is no way because do you think we're ever buying a ball cannon? I'm going to try and mimic that testing. No, because realistically, when a paddle hits our doorstep, we should know, oh, it's got the seal of approval on it. It means we're good to go. We don't have to worry about this. Shouldn't have to question it.

[00:39:53] Now, maybe there could be a paddle that spins so ridiculous on court that it sounds some red flags. But that is still not the actual test. You can't go like, yeah, I bet that's illegal. Yep. You don't actually know without the test. So I think that with how slow USIP has been to act now, I think companies could submit a paddle that passes, do whatever they want to make it spin more. And how long is it going to take people to catch on and realize now? Because everyone's just going to go, oh, well, paddles are just more spinning out.

[00:40:22] That's just how the rule is. There's no easy way to know it's a problem. And same thing with the stuff I'm hearing through the grapevine. With foam cores now, companies submit a harder foam to pass PB core, deflection, whatever. And then they make a lower density core after that and go, they can't tell immediately. The only way you're going to hear is if a bunch of people are complaining in the market. So again, what do you... It's been the same issue just with different elements of the paddle.

[00:40:50] Companies would send in sand, smooth faces to get over the grit limits and then just ship the grittiest paddles of all time under the market. And now it's cores. Super dense core to pass testing. And then you get absolute cannons. Yeah. It's just a problem. So to me, this is kind of circling back to why I think UPAA has managed to keep this under control. One, having a fine and punishment system is the way to do it.

[00:41:20] Like, yes, okay, if you get a paddle delisted, yeah, that's going to hurt, right? That's not going to feel good. You could lose a lot of sales. You're going to have unhappy customers. But I think there needs to be like a strike system, like three strikes or something. First of all, first offense, like $15,000 fine. Maybe your paddle gets delisted, okay? Second offense, $50,000 fine. Maybe go even higher than that or something. You want to do $100,000? Go for it, okay? Third fine, you as a manufacturer have now just lost your ability to certify paddles.

[00:41:49] Like, you can't certify paddles with us anymore. You got caught cheating too many times. You're done. Yeah. If you have punishments like that and you actually hand them out, you scare people from continuing to cheat. Yeah. Well, again, like another, there's a brand that, you know, you have to resubmit. If you change something in your paddle, you have to resubmit, get new approval, make sure it passes testing.

[00:42:15] We know of a brand that if you hold up one batch to another, to a third, to another, they're completely different in terms, not just like, oh, this batch was bad. They're different manufacturing methods. Yeah. And they never resubmit it for testing. So stuff like that so blatantly can get through. Yep. Dude, you have got massive problems. I mean, you're, dude, the people at the gates are blind. Yeah. I mean, you need to put the fear of God in people when it comes to this.

[00:42:45] Like, you shouldn't, you should be scared that your paddle can get delisted. Whereas right now, from what I feel like I see in the industry, there are very few people who are scared. Yeah. I would say the majority are not scared. It's way too easy to cheat the system for USAP, particularly. Yeah. And the manufacturers at China know that. Yeah. And they, if you are a new brand. It's literally services they will offer you. Yes. If you're a new brand and you go to a manufacturer, they're like, oh, we offer you this because we know how to get past their testing.

[00:43:15] Yeah. And then, you know, if you want to throw in the whole owl debacle again, if you want to read about that, I'm not going to summarize that whole thing here. But like, the owl has been one of those ones where I just go like, you know, look, and we're going to get to it here in a second. You can absolutely point the finger at UPA for things they have not done well. I am not at any point in time saying their history has been perfect. They're not saints. I think they have gotten to a point now where I think they've cleaned a lot of that up and kind of squashed some of the fears that I think people had.

[00:43:44] Earned a lot more respect. But like, look, the whole 3S thing, I think that was a really odd situation. Probably shouldn't have happened the way it did. Just like with the owl. You know, I'll link two articles that you can read about. But I feel like if I'm remembering correctly in one of the articles where USAP got interviewed about the owl, they kind of point the finger a little bit at like the 3S. And you guys did the same thing with the owl. With this whole like, well, we gave it. It couldn't pass the test. So we gave it like a provisional approval.

[00:44:14] But no one knew about that provisional approval. And also that provisional approval just happened to go on for like a year and a half or more. It's like, how do people not see the problem with this? Trying to do the whole quiet approve list. And that just no one cares about that. I mean, that was never going to take off. No. No. Because, yeah, it just it wasn't going to take off. So, OK, now let's go through UPA's history a little bit. We kind of just alluded to some of this. But first of all, if anyone recalls, I mean, you can go back to the old podcast. I was not a UPA fan.

[00:44:43] I was very critical of UPA. It started off very sketchy. Yeah. I feel like the PPA had a history of like paddle testing being really weird. You know, some paddles would be like accused of cheating. Then it would get to testing and like the paddle would disappear or would end up being fine. And there was no punishment. That was all weird. That was kind of that was before the UPA. That was all that was like PPL doing the testing, right? Yeah. And it was like, yeah, that whole era was just the testing methods weren't great.

[00:45:11] Players were trying to do weird things like putting paddles in freezers and all or crushing them after whatever you could think of. Players are trying to skirt the rules with that. And then, you know, there was the 3S. That whole thing was insane. The Gen 3 gets banned on the USAP side. And then the 3S pops up for approved at PPA. And like that was the first, you know, UPA or PPA only approved paddle. And that was just like, well, what the heck is going on here? That wasn't great. And like I said, with the whole punishment thing, I think that wasn't great.

[00:45:41] Then there were the rumors floating around that UPA wanted to charge manufacturers $100,000 annual fee to certify paddles. And everyone was like, you're going to kill the small guys. You went from, you know, having to pay what $4,000 or $5,000 to approve a paddle to like 60 or more. Yep. And then that did get walked back. It's not that much anymore. They were for profit. They're not no longer for profit. They're a nonprofit now. That was a thing we were critical of for a while. Yeah. Because they were like, hey, you know, we want to be a nonprofit.

[00:46:12] And they're like, well, when are you going to become one? Yeah. You know, which I know like the process of getting to that point is, you know, immediate. Not fast. Yeah. So, but so I'm glad they did, you know, follow through on that. Yeah. And then these days you really just don't hear complaints from pros anymore. Like when was the last time there was a huge outcry from like a match and someone was like, that paddle is absolutely cheating. There's no way. Like it just doesn't happen. No, not like big public outcry like there was with with Gen 3s and stuff where you just heard it publicly all the time.

[00:46:41] But I've heard privately from players just more so about certain paddles spinning really well. And I think that's just great technology companies getting to it faster than others. Not that they're breaking rules. Yeah. Just that they found something faster than another brand. Yeah. That's been the only complaint I've heard from from players, which is so much better than what it used to be, which is like every week it was a controversy about a core crushing or this paddle spins too much or, you know, I mean, it's just it was never ending. So. Yes, I think they had their problems.

[00:47:10] And look, there was still there's still the issue looming over it. That is, yes. OK, UPA is a nonprofit, but PPA, MLP, that whole umbrella is still very much a we want to make money. And at what cost do they want to make money? Right. Like, I think there is. I don't want to say everything is perfect, but I think the way UPA has moved, I have way higher hopes over there than I do for USA. They're building a lot more trust than USAP. That's for sure. Yeah.

[00:47:40] I think they've been way better at communicating. What I hear is the communication is better with the brands. They're easier to get get a hold of. More transparent. Also, people I've heard from brands and I've talked to Jason at USAP, USAP, UPA, not USAP. Yep. About paddles barely failing. Like, they'll be, you know, three RPM over. 2103. Sorry, that fails. There's no special pass like, oh, OK, you know what? Like, maybe we'll run it one more time. Yeah. No, that fails.

[00:48:09] If you fail the first time that you failed. Back of the line. Yep. And that's what it should be in my opinion. And that's look, that's going to be frustrating for the brands. I've had brands express to me how mad they were that we barely, you're telling me we failed by one RPM and we're back of the line. How is that fair? I'd rather have that though. I think you gotta, you gotta set boundaries and you have to stick to them. If you just let even one like, ah, you know, it was close enough. You've caused massive issues.

[00:48:36] I would way rather upset people by enforcing your set rules than upset people by, yeah, we let this guy through because it was close. Yeah. That's way bigger problem. I 100% agree. So I feel like UPAA, their testing has become more predictable, seems to make more sense to manufacturers for the most part. I think they're better at implementing punishments and scaring manufacturers from cheating. They're better at communicating with the manufacturers and even people like us who just

[00:49:03] help us understand the market more broadly what's happening with paddle testing. And then they also have break in testing and USAP still doesn't have break in testing. To be honest, I think with the stage that paddles are in, I feel less concerned about it than I did before, but I'm not saying get rid of it. It's just that I don't feel like most paddles are breaking into a point where it becomes dangerous. We still have too many Gen 3s in the market. But I feel like they really haven't been problematic.

[00:49:32] Like, yes, they'll still core crush, right? Maybe not at the pro level because they get replaced all the time, but we still have a lot of core crush paddles out in the amateur world. I mean, yes, it does still happen in the amateur level. I just feel like it's maybe not as bad as it used to be. But there's still at least one person or more at every tournament that has a core crush paddle. It does feel that way, yes. So I still think that's too much. Sure. What is, at the moment, UPA's break-in testing method? I don't know.

[00:49:59] I know they, well, it used to be something people were not a fan of. Horrendously bad. With a vice. Let's just clamp it into a vice and start cranking on it. I mean, that was... My understanding now is they have like an actual machine that more uniformly applies pressure and like, it's not a vice anymore that someone's cranking. It's like a machine that does it. Yeah. That whole vice thing was bad. You'd have somebody just having a bad day and they're like, I'm just gonna crank that one a little, crack this one a little more. Fighter. Yeah, exactly.

[00:50:26] So I just feel like they're in a much better stage now. Whereas USAP, it just feels like a, we're not gonna do anything till we can do it perfectly. But it's like, do you understand what's happening to the market while you wait to be perfect? Like, yeah, look, UPAA, there might've been some things they rostered, you know, they had the vice, which was maybe not a great way, but maybe you're still deterring some people from making paddles that'll break immediately. Yeah. So it's like, do you want perfect that takes forever to implement or do you want slightly

[00:50:56] imperfect, but is going to catch some of the problems that could get through? Both have problems. I'm not saying both, one is way better than the other. But look at what UPA did that USAP has not been doing. They had a bad test. Their people were critical of it and they, they developed a new one and changed it. Yeah. They're at least listening and working towards different methods when they make a mistake versus USAP is like, sorry, this is how we do it. Yeah. And that's just not okay.

[00:51:25] I mean, even when I went to the whole media day thing for USAP, there was so much concern from reviewers, manufacturers. I mean, pretty much everyone in that room had concerns and problems with what was being done. And the entire time it just felt like no one was being heard. Like every question that got asked, there was some rebuttal of why they don't need to do that or why it doesn't matter or just like, oh, you're wrong. And it's like, everyone in the room is telling you this is a problem. As a really bad way of going up, going about things.

[00:51:55] Yeah. So I just feel like, I guess at the end of the day, what everyone wants is one governing body. Whoever that is, doesn't matter as long as the rules are actually enforced, right? I think things should be more clear and transparent that everyone has to follow for rules. And then the most important part, the enforcement of the rules. Lay down the law on some people. Make an example so that other people don't want to cheat, right? It just, it causes such a mess for everyone, right?

[00:52:22] Because, okay, manufacturers go, well, if this guy's, if this guy's making this and he's selling paddles out the wazoo and I'm not selling paddles anymore, I guess I got to do it to be competitive. And then I think that trickles down everywhere else. That trickles down to reviewers. And it's like, okay, if you have a paddle that you think might be off a little bit, it's like, well, I'm not the governing body. It's not my job. But like, should you promote a paddle that has concerns like this? Like, is that fair?

[00:52:50] And then could get delisted for the consumer. So like. But then you have to believe the stamp. Exactly. You know, like you can't, you can't punish a brand or punish. It's on the market and it got through. And people can play with it. Yeah. And you can play with it. So it's tough to like speculate those things, even if we might be right. Yeah. It's just a weird place to be. Yeah. So I just feel like it at the top, if the job is not done right, it trickles down into so many other areas of the market that become a problem.

[00:53:20] And so I just like you, not everyone in the industry can just keep sitting here going. Can you guys do something right? Like I. An ideal world. Yes, we have one governing body. They merge or one just takes over. That's ideal. But I'll say this. We will get. Annalie will no longer be the number one women's player before we get one governing body. That's that's that's a pretty bold. That's a pretty bold one.

[00:53:50] I think I think we will have somebody. Annalie won't even be making quarterfinals. Before this happens. Before we get one governing body. I would be. So joyous. So happy if this happened. And if I'm wrong, I would love to be wrong. Yeah. But from my what my understanding of the people that run USAP and that run UPA too stubborn not happening. Yeah. I mean, you might be right. There'd have to be a real big kumbaya moment for that for those things to happen.

[00:54:19] Well, I feel like at the end of the day. Look, I don't know what internal conversations have looked like because I'm sure they've talked. Yeah. Ego just needs to be set aside. Like, look, I understand why USAP probably doesn't like UPA. Yeah. And I can understand probably why UPA doesn't like USAP. Look, but at the end of the day, what do we want? We want the sport to grow. We want it to be simpler. We want it to be safer. And the way we're currently approaching it. I don't know that we're really getting there.

[00:54:49] Right. Right. It just it's it's confusing. And I just I don't know. I hope that talking about this, what happens is, look, we've been vocal about this many times and I've had so many conversations with other people who are important in the industry brands. Everyone thinks this is a problem. And I feel like the problem is when, you know, one person like us talks about it and no one else talks about it. But everyone has these private conversations of we think this is a problem. Look, if everyone's talking about this is a problem.

[00:55:18] Maybe that finally makes it clear to USAP, like something has to change. OK, and look, I understand harping on USAP here. And I don't even say this because it's like, oh, I think USAP is terrible people and we shouldn't have them. I think it's good that we have them. I think USAP has done a lot of good for the sport. But I think two things can also be true at the same time. You can be good for the sport in certain things and also be causing problems in another way. For sure. So it doesn't mean like, oh, man, I just hope I hope you guys go out of business and

[00:55:48] you're out of here. I mean, I don't think I don't think we'll ever get any good change if we're not critical of these issues. Yeah. So I think these are things that have to be brought up. I agree. But yeah, this is very frustrating to me. I think about a lot of this stuff all the time, because like I said, it impacts my ability to do my job. I was just talking to someone the other day. Like, I am exhausted from having to feel like, oh, is this company skirting the rules? What am I supposed to do with that?

[00:56:15] Like we were saying before, like, if it has a stamp and people can buy it, I feel like I should be able to talk about it. But the way the market is right now, it's like people want reviewers to be the police a little bit. And it's like, well, I don't want to be the governing body. Like, I know we talk about a lot of these things like, oh, this paddle seems problematic or this one seems like it might be out of spec a little bit. But like I've said, I hate it. It's not like it's fun for me. Yeah. Like every time I do it, I'm like, here we go again. It's not fun. Right.

[00:56:41] So I just, it is exhausting feeling like, is the governing body doing their job and what I get? Is it something I can actually talk about? Or am I going to go recommend this? And then you're going to delist it. And now everyone looks like a moron. Right. Yeah. You know, that's just bad. One interesting thing, this isn't really in our notes, so I don't know if this will really be a great topic. But I'm curious, one, whose responsibility is it and how? Because I don't think it's really, it was a big talking point for a little while, but

[00:57:11] I don't, I haven't seen it be a big issue. But like knockoff paddles. Like what? What? Because I know that was a big discussion for a while. Should governing bodies be doing a better job at fixing that? Or like whose responsibility is it to try and like stop these fakes and knockoffs? Like do brands need to put in better like fail safes to stop these people from being able to copy their paddles?

[00:57:38] Like Yola did their little hollow graphic thing on the side. Or the NFC chips. Or the NFC chips, stuff like that. I don't, I think the ways that the governing body would need to be better about it or where I think they play their part is maybe more so on the making sure you know what is actually on your approved list and enforcing it, right? Because right now it's so easy to just slap a USIP stamp on a paddle. You just copy the stamp. I mean, you could copy the UPA stamp. I'm willing to bet. I mean, yeah, you could. True.

[00:58:09] True. I just think if you're not checking the list, because I mean, think about it. Let's just say I made a paddle right now. I went to China. I made a paddle. I could just slap a stamp on it. If I went to one of our local tournaments, it's not getting checked. No one would notice. It's not getting checked. Yeah. There's just no way. Because everyone assumes, oh, stamp, good to go. Yep. You know? And right now I don't feel like the stamp actually means that much. Well, look, if you go to, you know, the US Open or even amateur event PPAs, what do the refs do? Is it on the list? Let me feel both sides.

[00:58:39] You're good to go. Yeah. I mean, even that checking is useless. Yeah. It doesn't. It really doesn't. It's an outdated way of handling the situation at this point. Yeah. You know? Because you're also assuming that the players are being truthful when they say, yes, this is on the approval. Every single player could just lie about it. And they'd never know. Exactly. So yeah, I don't know. The whole clone thing, I think there's a lot of factors. Like that could be its own whole topic one day. For sure.

[00:59:06] You know, for a while it was going around and it was a big talking point. At least in our area and traveling, I haven't seen it be like a big problem. Like I've heard some people say it is, but I haven't really also been looking for it. I think just the areas we play, it's often going to be people who are probably a little bit more invested and probably just, you know, not really dealing with the clones. But at least for the big brands, it does sound like the clones are a pretty big issue. Yeah. But, you know, to what, and I'm sure it varies by region as well. For sure. You know?

[00:59:37] Okay. Next thing I want to go on to, since that's what we had to say on The Governing Body. Like I said, I would love for other people to talk about this. Other people who have podcasts, brands. Like I really feel like everyone just kind of needs to make these concerns more known. It's never going to change if it's just someone like us talking about this on one podcast. Yeah. So I would love to hear more people talk about this. I'm not even saying we're right on every point. Look, I'm sure there's things that people disagree with what we said. Totally. Right? But the conversation should be had, you know? Okay. Next thing.

[01:00:08] Durable grit. This is obviously, you know, been this huge whole topic. We've seen some brands succeed more. We've seen some brands succeed less. And I more so just wanted to talk about a term here. And I think this term started more so with Justin and Lewis. And I know you guys know. I love you. I'm not being critical of you here. But I do just think this terminology has probably caused a little bit more confusion than I think is necessary.

[01:00:34] Before we get into it, I will just say terminology and being correct on terminology has been a just lifelong issue in pickleball. Yes. Like, it has just always been a problem. Yes. And so the term I'm talking about is durable grit and permanent grit. So I feel like I just see the term permanent grit thrown around a lot. And so my understanding, Justin Lewis, when they, you know, they didn't do the tier system. It was kind of like, look, there's raw carbon fiber.

[01:01:02] There's durable grit, which is like, it's not as bad as that, but it's not permanent. And then permanent was essentially the grits that they last so long that you'll probably go through the rest of the paddle before the grit really wears out. So I don't think that is inherently problematic. But I think the problem with the word permanent is it just implies never changing, never wearing down. And I just do not actually believe that there is a single grit that genuinely achieves that.

[01:01:30] Because even hex grit will smooth out over time. Like I have paddles. The grit is dropping as it gets used more, right? Now, the spin wasn't necessarily being changed in those tests, which is the thing we care about. So I understand what they're saying there, but besides them and maybe perma grit, but even perma grit, I did see a drop. And I was like, hey, you know, it'd be nice to do more testing. I don't think we'll ever see something that is truly permanent. I don't think that's possible. I just think that's an unreasonable expectation. Well, totally.

[01:01:59] Even though we've had durable grits do pretty well and succeed in lasting longer. I think people have seen one or two of those work well and then just assume all of them now need to be just permanent, as good as this or better. And I think expectations are too high. I agree. With any brands. Now, I don't think stuff like what happened with Enhance or Vatic is necessarily acceptable. Yes.

[01:02:26] But at the same time, I don't think we need to be something. Let's just say. Take the Spitfire, for example. Yeah. Has even a 5% or 8% drop off. Okay. Not amazing. There's still a drop off. But that's still really good compared to what we have had. So is it permanent? No. Is it more durable? Yes. That's the goal. Is more durable than what we have seen. And the Spitfire made me laugh because in my review, there were some people who were like,

[01:02:55] okay, so it went from like 2,500 to 2,200. Don't want it because that's a big change. And look, I'm not even disagreeing that there is a change there. But when a year ago, our conversation was in one week, your grit is now like basically shot. You went from 2,200 to 1,600? Yeah. And now we're talking in like a similar timeframe. We're still spinning higher than where the other paddles started. Yeah. To me, that goes like, okay, look, if I could have a paddle that would never change from day one to

[01:03:24] game 1,000, that's incredible. But I don't know it will. Let's just even put it this way. If you had a paddle old raw carbon that went from 2,000, we'll just use easy numbers here, 2,000 and drop to 1,500. 1,500 is pretty much unusable. That is like an unacceptable number. That's got to be retired. Or you have a new durable grit that goes from 2,500 to 2,000. In the 2,000 range, yeah, same amount drop off, but 2,000 is still a usable range. Yeah.

[01:03:54] That's like, so it's a big improvement from what we had. I think that the real problem is that 2,000 will feel worse comparatively because you had the ability to start at 2,500 just in the way that 2,000 to 1,500 will. I guess it's a matter of how quickly does it get to that point? Because again, if it's so gradual and you're not hitting something fresh and brand new, even good players are not. It'll be hard to tell. It's still difficult to tell. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

[01:04:22] So I just, I really think the concept of grits lasting forever is going to be tricky because even let's look at this, probably one of the best examples we have. And I wish we personally had more data on this, but we've just had too many paddles to get through. The Honolulu's, we haven't even reviewed those. Okay. My understanding is that when that got released and all the tests came out, pretty much everyone in the reviews agreed this is like a tier one grit. This grit doesn't really wear down.

[01:04:51] But then all over Reddit, Facebook, and all these other different places, one, people are complaining about the consistency of the grit when it's brand new, going like, I got one that had a lot of crystal in it. Then I got one that didn't have a lot of crystal in it. And then some people are showing their paddles and they look really bald. I haven't played with one to look, I don't know what kind of spin it's actually generating. I'm just basing this off of the user feedback I'm hearing. And blue grit, sure, in the real world, doesn't sound like it's holding up to what we would

[01:05:19] expect a tier one grit to be. Whereas hex grit is like one of the only grits where consistently, if you see like feedback on Reddit or Facebook, people are like, yeah, my grit's gone down, but like, I'm still really happy with how it spins. Right? So I just, I don't know. That's like a great example of one that was deemed tier one. But then in the real world, I'm seeing people go like, I'm probably not as happy with this as I could be. Yeah. You know? So I don't know.

[01:05:46] I just feel like the durable grit conversation, I feel like expectations got out of hand really quickly. And I don't know how many companies will be able to repeat the success. Like in my mind, if you took a hex grip paddle, I'm just going to go ahead and guess here. I don't have this data. But if you had someone who played it up to a thousand games, I'm going to bet by a thousand games, the spin is probably a lot worse. Yeah. Or to the point where it's noticeable compared to a new one. Now, is that inherently bad?

[01:06:16] No. Do you think we will ever see a grit that will truly outlast the durability of cores? I think like small issues like edge guards and stuff, we'll get to a point where it's maybe solved, where those aren't like necessarily breaking as much as long as companies are keeping a good eye on it. But will we see a grit that like, we'll see EVA foams degrading before we see the grit wear down? Well, I mean, that's I think the concept of what people were saying with things like hex grit, which...

[01:06:45] That's what we want. But I don't think we're at that point yet. I don't even think hex grit is there yet. I think it just depends because like, what is the degradation of the core that you find acceptable, right? Like a pro player will be very different from a 3-5. Well, legality. What? You think the core breaks down to a point where it's not legal? Yeah. I mean, I just don't think that really happens with foam. They don't go more dead. Well, I think foam cores often just go more dead. I feel like we've seen some that heat up.

[01:07:15] I think you're right though. I do think most start to die off or even let's just say that not necessarily legality, but let's just say the foam pad, the core starts dying before grit is an issue. I mean, I think some people think that is currently how it is. I don't think... Because some people, I mean, there are people, some people who think foam cores go dead in less than a month. I think that's insane. I've played with so many foam paddles and not noticed that. That's crazy. And I've played with foam paddles, the same one for like months on end. Same.

[01:07:43] So that's why I think it just depends on the person. Some people maybe are more perceptive to some of those things, some maybe less. But all of this conversation has really made me start thinking to myself, you know what? Maybe Reload had it right. Well, here's the thing. First of all, no one even thought Reload had it wrong. The problem was that Reload's first paddle was just kind of okay. And then it was too heavy. And then they made nothing else after that. They made a 14 millimeter.

[01:08:10] But it was like now with foam cores, we've said this on previous pods, I think there's a lot of potential for that idea to have worked really well. Because now with the new rules, the peel ply could be grittier. It could be... And whenever you feel, you individually feel, you know what? Mine's not working anymore. Maybe I got a bad sheet. Swap it. You feel like you're so picky, you want to swap it every single match? Go for it. It's 30 days for you or 60 or 90. Swap it when you feel like it.

[01:08:39] Whereas right now, if let's say you got a blue grit paddle and it didn't have enough crystal in it and you can see the difference, what are you going to do? Hope they warranty it? So I think that system had a lot of potential if they could just figure out the whole weight dialing and stuff like that. And I feel like the crazy thing is, is it solves so many of the complaints we're having right now. Yeah. You could still make some of those sheets more durable if you wanted. I imagine, right? Like you could infuse some particles into those reloadable sheets.

[01:09:08] So I just like, yes, in all technicality, it could be a little bit more money for consumers. But look at tennis rackets. Everyone's fine restringing it. Some people are picky and they're going to restring it after three days. Some people, it's going to be a month. I bet if I played with a tennis racket, probably I don't notice a change for three months. Yeah. Maybe more, you know? So I just, as I keep thinking about it, I'm like, maybe that was the answer the whole time. You know? And with it not being able to be UPA approved because of their rules, maybe it's never going to take off.

[01:09:36] But I feel like right now, all the manufacturers are in this really tough spot of trying to make this forever lasting grit that the concept of reload solved and you could swap it for 20 bucks. Yeah. People spend 20 bucks regularly on dumber things than making your grit a little bit better. For sure. Like coffee every day. Those are 20 bucks, but you know, 10 maybe. Dude, there are people who drink multiple cups of coffee and those things are 10 to $12

[01:10:05] a cup nowadays. So I know there's a lot of coffee drinkers out there listening that probably are pissed off, but you know it's true. So one interesting thing I was thinking about, kind of back to the bad batch cop-out thing. So I feel like some brands have, you know, like some of the just manufacturing methods of these grits, like, oh, it's just some of these manufacturing methods are inconsistent. And that method is just bad. Like we need to, we need to fix like, like gen threes.

[01:10:32] I mean, those have pretty much gotten better, but I still think that manufacturing, manufacturing method in general is inevitable. You're going to have core crush issues. So it's, it's not a batch issue. It's a manufacturing issue, like a construction issue. Yeah. And that's why we changed to foam cores, not completely, but probably most of the market now. Yeah. So I think some of, I think we'll see some of these grit manufacturing methods just be, that's the problem. And you just need to switch completely. Yeah.

[01:11:01] And who knows, you know, maybe again, it's kind of like the thermal forming days where it's early. Everyone's trying to figure it out. Maybe two years from now, it doesn't even matter. And maybe everyone's got it solved to the point where people are like, yeah, this is good enough, you know? Cause I think right now the gamble of, am I going to get a gritty one? Am I going to get a bad one? Is it going to last long? Is it not? It works for some, that's just not. It works for some people, but it didn't work for these guys. Yeah. It's just not, that's not acceptable. You, things have to change.

[01:11:27] And that, if that's just always going to be the issue with how it's manufactured, that's not okay. Also think about this too. You know, there's so many environments to account for is someone playing indoor. Are they playing outdoor? What type of ball do they play? Are they aggressive paddle tapping and an edge guard is scraping the grit? Do you think that has any damage? Cause they see some people who are really cautious about it. They'll like, you know, turn their butt cap. I've talked to some people like, Oh, I'll never tap paddles. Cause it's going to damage my, my pad. I mean, because I don't want it to be a variable.

[01:11:56] A lot of times I will kind of do the butt cap thing just to not throw off any of our testing. I wouldn't say I'm so concerned about it, but some people, I mean, I'm sure you've had it, you know, some people kind of whack your paddle and you're like, Whoa, bro. Like why are you hitting my paddle so hard? I do think it highly depends on how aggressive someone is with it, but just casually tapping paddles, especially like when all four players are walking up to the net after a game, no one's going in there smacking each other's paddles. And I, I know some people who are very vigilant about me. I will never tap paddles normally.

[01:12:26] Personally. I think that's a bit silly. And I think that will never damage your paddle. If you're clanking pals in the middle of four hands, lefty, righty, that's going to, you know, cause some damage, but if we're talking normal, gentle paddle tap, I would agree with you. Yeah. That's what I mean. I've never seen anyone, all four players go to the kitchen to, you know, tap paddles, say good game and someone be like smacking each other. Like that type of paddle tapping. I firmly believe that will never damage your paddle. Sure. Fair enough.

[01:12:55] And then last thing I'll say before we go on to the kitchen here, cause I'm sure we're real deep at this point. I, even with the testing we do right now, right? A hundred games became this baseline in our testing because we found within a hundred games, raw carbon fiber would often degrade to a point where at least at a competitive level, you would no longer be happy with it. There are people, you know, play with a raw carbon fiber paddle for a year and maybe for their style, it doesn't matter as much, or maybe they just, they do care, but they don't want to buy another paddle.

[01:13:22] So a hundred games just became the standard of, Hey, we know this grit wears out in that timeframe. But realistically, like with a lot of these durable grits, the conversation should probably be around like 300, 500 plus games or something, because that's the lifespan. Even more than that for a lot of people is probably how long they're using it. Like realistically, a hundred games, I think could be, if you, someone who plays pickleball like every single day and you play a lot, you could probably knock out a hundred games

[01:13:52] week and a half, two weeks, absolute max. If you are someone who plays a lot. Yeah. So you think about that two weeks, isn't necessarily a lot of time owning a paddle, you know, that just became the benchmark because it worked for the comparison. But realistically, 500 plus would be great. But if we do 500 plus games, like if I hit 500 plus games, so far behind on everything. I mean, you'd get four reviews a year for me. Yep. So it's like the best we can do with what we have right now.

[01:14:21] But I still think even that is not perfect. You know, I agree. Okay. Where you've made it to the kitchen. Congrats. You've made it through. If you're still awake right now, I'm proud of you. If you're in California and you're still stuck in traffic, I'm sorry for you. Now we're going to talk about some unsolicited advice stories. So we talked a lot about this last week and then I put out a thing that was like, hey, tell me some of your funniest stories. Now I'll be honest. I didn't get as many as I thought I would. I honestly thought I'd get a lot more funny stories.

[01:14:51] That's great. I guess. I think it's just that the unsolicited stories are usually quick things that don't make for a great story. But we got some good ones I want to talk about. Some are short. Some are a little longer. First one. Guy said, how do rando begin coaching me in the middle of a point? Bro, middle of a point? Bro, come on. I mean, I hate any talking in the middle of a point. Define any talking though. Like you, me? No, no, no. Like conversation. Okay, yeah. Yes. Even amongst a partner. Yeah.

[01:15:20] Like in rec, like we've had some funny moments, but I'm just like, even in just rec games, if my partner's trying to have a conversation and talk while we're like, bro, just play Big of Love because I don't want to focus on having a conversation and play. But yeah, random coaching from someone you don't know while playing actively. That's just, that's insane. Dude. Next one. 4-5 player here in an open play and a 3-5 playing partner telling me I should lob more.

[01:15:48] That's, that's like, uh, that's, that's somebody who sat down and watched Anna Lee play some like first round matchup pros and just spam lob and be like, well, if she does it, we should be doing it. We should be doing it. I just, I just think it's, yeah, that's pretty funny. Next one. Well, this one was bread and butter. They said reviewers telling us we need to have a wide body. You know what? That's some unsolicited coaching that is just not necessary. That can die off now. No, no. That's the one time unsolicited coaching is warranted.

[01:16:17] Disagree. Wide body. Bring it, bread and butter. Also to go back, I feel like that 3-5 saying to lob more, is this a group of like, like how old are you? Are you, are you somebody who's like, are you 70 years old and you're like trying to get some, you know, they're not going to go back to lob because if so, that's diabolical. Yeah, exactly. That's bad on you. The lob shot is, is ruthless. If you've ever watched like the older age group, PPH, they're ruthless. Yeah. They know when someone can't move backwards and they just lob each other back and forth.

[01:16:46] I'm like, man, that's brutal. I know. I know. I, yeah, I agree. Bro told me to stop dropping thirds because it was a low percentage shot. I missed one, by the way, this was 4-0 plus. A low percentage shot. This is somebody who took the like, don't play slow until you get to a certain level way too literally. Yeah. You know, just drive the ball at 3-5, you know, like it's got some truth to it, but doesn't mean you always need to. Bro, if I missed one third and my partner was like, hey, hey, hey, you should, you should probably cut that out.

[01:17:16] I'd be like, bro, it was one shot. I'd be looking at my partner and every ball they missed from then on out. I'd be like, yeah, you might want to cut that shot out. I've had times in tournaments, not that I told this to my partner, I literally said to myself where I missed two in a row and then I missed a third one. I'm like, okay, I need to change something. Like that, that is fine. But you miss one out of like, let's just say 10. Yeah. That's not bad. That's crazy. Someone said, stop playing with that girl. You're too good. It was my wife. Was this like actively in a play session?

[01:17:46] Because if so, that's crazy. Yeah, that's just, that's crazy. So those are the short ones. Now we have three longer ones here. Someone said, wait, when an amateur who was barely a 4.0 and was also, I'll just leave the age out just in case they. It's too obvious. Too obvious. A younger age. Yes. A younger age kept telling me after every shot I missed that it was because of my paddle

[01:18:13] and that I should go and buy the paddle he had because it was the best. But really, he was just an affiliate for the company with their bag and paddles, et cetera. And just trying to make a sale by selling me a paddle and criticizing every part of my game to do it. My paddle wasn't the problem. Being a 3.5 at the time was the problem. I was playing with the Gearbox Pro Power, which eventually took me to 4.0. He was trying to sell me, I guess I'll leave the paddle brand out. Oh, no. Oh, I just saw the brand.

[01:18:42] That's crazy. Dude. Okay. Let me just say that like, again, we're not going to say the exact age, but of a younger age. Yeah. I think that as someone who has worked in sales and has kind of studied some like sales psychology, degrading someone and criticizing what they do to get them to buy something is not the method. Yeah. That is just not going to work ever. Hey, bro. You keep missing your thirds because your paddle sucks.

[01:19:12] I mean, that's like what I've said about other brands like saying, oh, these guys suck. So buy ours. That's just bad marketing. Yeah. It's never going to work. Yeah. So, wow. That's crazy. I know. I was winning 10-1. The guy then served and missed the return. Same thing happened again. Reminder, the score is now 10-3 in a game to 11.

[01:19:39] The guy goes up to the net, beckons me over and says, your return errors are killing you. Maybe try coming over the ball more. He's my opponent down 3-10, giving me advice on how to beat him by more? Just why? So I get the ball back, beat him on an ace, and he says, see, I told you. You get the return in on the last point by going over the ball. Something about that story, at least the way it was written, I think he had some stuff flipped there.

[01:20:10] But either way, why would your opponent ever give you advice? That doesn't even make sense. I mean, I'm not saying that they're lying. I'm sure. Crazier things have happened. Crazy things have happened. But that just makes no sense. In a tournament? Okay, if it's rack, I can see that for sure. But in a tournament? Bro. I'm not giving my opponent any advice. I'm not talking to you at all if you're my opponent, unless I'm chirping. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, I agree. All right, last one. This is a long one. I don't even know if I finished reading this whole one.

[01:20:39] So we're about to go on a journey together here. Backstory. I'm currently a 394 duper. Career high, just above 4.0. I've run several pickleball meetup groups, been a tournament director for a few organizations, and hosted several charity events. I always hit my serve from very low. I played racquetball in college, and a racquetball serve is very similar to a pickleball serve, so I kept the same mechanics when I started playing pickleball.

[01:21:05] A couple months ago, I was hosting a charity pickleball event in a region where I don't usually play. Towards the end of the event, one of the donors asked if I wanted to get a game in. I said sure, and grabbed a paddle out of my laptop bag. I had been watching the level of play throughout the entire event, and it was very low recreational. I usually play the right because I'm left-handed. First serve of the game, no warm-up, I sent a pretty soft serve with my usual mechanics into the net.

[01:21:30] The donor, who was my partner for this game, tells everyone to stop because it looks to him like I haven't played before. He comes up to me, puts hands on my waist and arm to show me how to serve. And then I forgot to write this in here, but he said after that, he was like, after that point, I decided not to hold back at all during that game. But bro, you miss, like, again, in what world do you see someone missing? You go, hang on, hang on, everyone.

[01:21:58] Let me just embarrass this, even if this guy wasn't good. Let's just say he wasn't actually good, and he could use some coaching. Let me embarrass this person because they just screwed up in front of everyone, and now I'm going to coach them in front of everyone here. There's no world where that's okay. That's insane. That's actually nuts. I don't even know what to say. That's crazy. The only, you know, I was trying to think while we were reading through these.

[01:22:24] Because in somewhat recent times, you know, people in our local area kind of just already know who we are. Not everybody, because by no means are we famous. But I remember going to a public park one day just to randomly get casual games in. Not being super competitive, playing with three sevens to maybe four oh. And I get in there, paddle I haven't used. I was just testing something. Didn't tie my shoes. And I'm being really casual, just kind of waltzing around the court.

[01:22:54] And I was hitting, I wasn't driving the ball, wasn't like being really powerful. I was hitting more really angled shots or hitting drops and stuff, like at the net. I hit a couple drops in the net. And the guy looks at me and goes, why you got to stop hitting such low percentage shots? And I was like, I'm putting about five percent effort in here. I'm not trying. Like, I'm just trying to be goofy. Did you miss them? Yeah, I just hit a couple drops into the net and missed.

[01:23:21] Or I'd hit a cross court roll that was a little higher, a little wide. And he goes, you got to stop hitting such low percentage shots. I'm like, dude, if I wanted, if I wanted, I would murder you guys right now. So obviously I didn't say anything. I was just like, yeah. But I'm like, if only you knew. If only you knew. The only story I can really think of where I got some unsolicited coaching, this was very early into my pickleball playing. We've told this story on the pod, but this is a legendary story.

[01:23:49] So I'm playing with this guy who was, he was way better than I was. You know, at the time he's, you know, how pickleball was probably four, five, five. Oh, I'm like a literal three, five at the time. And I just. Well known in the Minnesota groups. Yeah. And I'm playing, I'm on the right side and a ball, it like hits a drive and is going through the middle. So, so I reach with my backhand and tried to hit the ball. And I think I dumped it in the net. At the time, you just didn't even know any better. Yeah. Like we just, at that time we were so new, didn't really know all the strategy of pickleball

[01:24:17] that like forehand always takes the middle. Yeah. And so my partner looks at me and he goes, don't ever do that again. Like that, the forehand takes the middle. Your backhand should not be trying to hit that. He was actually kind of rude. Actually. Well, I was going to say to put it in perspective, this guy is the way he talks is always just really aggressive. He's never sound like, I'm like, does the guy know what a smile is? Yeah. He's just always angry looking. Yeah. And so after that, I, you know, I was like a little rattled, but I was like, okay, I won't, I won't do that again.

[01:24:44] And, uh, the very, the very next point, the same thing happens. And so I see this about to happen and I'm like, okay, I will not be hitting that ball. Ball goes right through the middle. He looks me dead in the face and he goes, why didn't you hit that? And I was like, are you kidding me right now? Like, first of all, you are way better than me. So yes, you should know. But like, you just told me to never do that. So I listened. Yep. I was just, I was pretty rattled. Yeah. That probably is one of the best unsolicited coaching stories we've got. I can't really think of any for, for me.

[01:25:14] The only time that coaching has ever happened for me is like when I'm drilling with somebody that I'm fine with. Yeah. If, if I'm drilling with somebody, I think that's an environment where it's like any kind of advice or talking about mechanics and stuff is welcome. Well, if you're drilling, you're also usually friends. So it's different when it's not random. If I'm drilling with somebody, I do not care if they just randomly bring something up about mechanics. Yeah. Bring it. We're drilling. But if I'm in a rec game, keep it to yourself. Yeah, for sure. So anyways, those are the stories we have.

[01:25:43] Hope you guys enjoyed the podcast and we'll catch you next week. Peace.