Getting to the Kitchen

[00:00:00] Hey everyone, welcome to Pickleball Cheat Code, the show for competitive pickleball players who are looking to level up their game. We focus on advanced strategies for experienced players, stuff only the pros know. I'm Brodie Smith, I'm a 5'5 plus level player, and I'm here with my co-host, Mr. Tanner Tomasi. What's up everyone? Tanner is a 6'0 plus rated player and an APP gold medalist. Today we're going to be breaking down how to get to the kitchen with efficiency and reliability.

[00:00:29] And if we've done anything to improve your game, please share the show with your Pickleball community. All right Tanner, if you're ready for this, I'm going to start off with something philosophical. I know you've been delivering a lot of great quotes throughout this show, and you've been throwing me for a loop, so I need to give you a quote back.

[00:00:59] I'm ready for it. Good. Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. It's a quote by the Chinese philosopher Confucius. Pretty good quote, right? I feel like that's pretty solid. I bring this quote because it's so prevalent in Pickleball. Tanner, why, from coaching, from clinics, from everything that we do, even for our own games, why do we overcomplicate things?

[00:01:25] I feel like we always overcomplicate the game, and so often I'm looking back and I'm taking a look in the mirror, even with myself, from people that I'm coaching, me. Everything is so overcomplicated, and this is going to tie into something directly to Pickleball. But tell me if you feel the same way, and this is something that you've noticed with yourself too. Yeah, I think I definitely, in tight matches, I tend to overcomplicate things, like just hit it over the net.

[00:01:50] But before this game, before this podcast, I was actually playing, we'll play like some money games sometimes. And I was up $100. Oh, I was going to say, how much are you putting? And then we put double or nothing, and I lost. So I got pissed. But I was like thinking after the game, I was like, we just play like one game each time, like 25 bucks a game, whatever, and then just double or nothing, double or nothing. But people pay out, so it's fun. But I lost. I'm like, what am I doing?

[00:02:17] Now that I'm looking back on it, I tried to target the weaker player, and I'm like, just move the dinks around. Just put it here, put it there. But it's so easy in hindsight, but in the moment, it's like, you just, it's not. It's hard in the moment, and that's what separates good players from bad players, and it comes down to experience. I mean, no matter how good of a player you are, you're going to overcomplicate things, whether you're you, Ben Johns, anyone. It's easier to do that than not.

[00:02:41] And the worst players will overcomplicate things all the time and just make stupid decisions, and I see it left and right. And the focus of this episode, and what I'm alluding to, is the fact that people overcomplicate the game in terms of just get to the damn kitchen. It's the simplest way to think about pickleball. It's one of the, it's the most important skill besides footwork, I would say. I'd say footwork is number one, and number two is consistently getting to the kitchen.

[00:03:09] If you were to simplify pickleball, I mean, that's for me at least, it sounds like you kind of agree as well. And here's a cold take, not a hot take, a cold take. The team that gets to the kitchen at a higher rate in a match than their opponents are going to win 95% of the time. Call me crazy, I feel like that's a cold take. What are your thoughts on that? No, I think that's a good take. I think at the kitchen line, the battles are pretty much 50-50. It just comes down to who has more shots on goal.

[00:03:37] Just who gets to the kitchen more is going to win most of the time. And I don't think people realize that. I think people are trying to go for these fancy shots, they're trying to hit these super heavy drives, these dippy thirds, or these stupid lobs, or a mid-court speed up. And it's like, your only thing that you should be thinking about in pickleball is just get to the damn kitchen. That's all I'm trying to say here, and I want to stress this because this is what I try to tell people when I'm coaching too, and this is all I really focus on for when I do coaching as well in any of the clinics that I do.

[00:04:07] Everything's related to that in terms of consistency and finding your foundation to get to the kitchen, if that makes sense. I totally agree. Yeah, most important. Good, good. Okay, so let's break it down now. Let's in a funny, ironic way overcomplicate this on how to get to the kitchen. So let's talk about how to get to the kitchen. For me, we've had these debates before in terms of when to drop and when to drive, and how often you should be dropping and how often you should be driving.

[00:04:35] The more I've been improving my own game, playing at a higher level, even playing with lifetime balls and playing with faster-paced players, I'm still dropping 98% of the time now. I know you've said before how it's important to drive and then dropping your fits to get in. I think just leading with drops is just the way to go. What have you been doing lately? Are you still driving a lot of your balls? I know you drive lifetimes, but even with lifetimes, it's the past PPA.

[00:05:06] I'm getting in way more often when I'm dropping. I think it depends on the return. If it's a weak return, I'll drop it. If it's a really deep return, I'll drive it. So I guess it really depends how me or my partner is serving. But I would say I tend to do probably 60-40 drops over drives. That's fair. My only point with that is that I just think driving is completely overrated for people that are looking to develop their game, and then even at the highest level too.

[00:05:35] How often are we seeing Ben drive thirds? Not that often, right? And some top players, like even Hayden. Hayden's not driving thirds that often. He's hitting some pretty aggressive dropping thirds that are pretty high risk. But for me too, the players that I'm playing against now, if I'm leaning into a drive-heavy game, and I've really tested this in matches where I've been on my heels, is the hands that these players have are so good. So if it's a little high and a little easy to catch and I'm not hitting a perfect drive,

[00:06:04] I feel like it just gets clapped back at me, and then it's really hard to transition in. And it just creates an inconsistent game. If I were to go play against Ben Johns right now, and if I were to try to drive every single time, his counters against me would be so good, I wouldn't be getting to the kitchen at a consistent rate. But if I try to drop against the best players in the world, I think I'd get in at a way higher rate. I don't think that's anything crazy to say. I feel like that's a pretty accurate statement, right? If I want to get in consistently,

[00:06:33] I would be relying on hitting hierarchy and consistent thirds and try to transition effectively versus relying on a drive. And most often when people are driving, it can easily go into the net, it can easily go long. I feel like there's just more risk associated with that type of shot when you're transitioning in. Yeah, I think I agree. I think the next step, like if somebody's hitting the drive really hard, I mean, normally if you go to the wings, like their forehand or backhand out wide, people are really able to clobber it.

[00:07:01] But if you can kind of go low near their belly button, like dead center near the belly button, it's kind of hard to volley. But yeah, if you don't hit the right spot, it can get hit back pretty hard. So I think like making sure your drive is like dipping over the net, low, at the right spot, I think that all makes it slightly easier. But I think it's different play styles too. Like if you're better at that, and somebody else may be better else. But I would agree, probably dropping will get you to the net more consistently.

[00:07:31] Yeah, I think that's what I'm just at least trying to get at. And like you said, there are situations where I'm still driving as well. You get pushed back really far. It's so hard to hit a perfect drop from there. So just rip it and then work on your fifth to get in and then hit more of a chip. So for those deep ones, then also if you get a really high and short return, drive that right at their chest. Don't drop those. Those as well. And then if you're playing somebody with really bad hands, yeah, throw some drives at them. Like why not? That's not what I'm saying. So I'm assuming for this conversation

[00:08:00] that you're playing people with really good hands. And then also if people are unwinding a stack and out of position in any way, I'm driving those balls as well. So those are the 10% areas that I'll be driving. But for the drop side, when you are dropping for you, you said about 60%, if not more. What kind of drops are you hitting? There's so many different styles of drops these days. I'm, you know, Andre Deasco, for example, carbon rep now. Love that, by the way. Shout out Andre. All of Andre's drops. He comes in, he scoops it,

[00:08:30] he chips it like a little baby, and he gets into the kitchen all day long. Then you have Hayden Patricklin, who's hitting, getting under the ball and hitting this whippy third shot drop that just plummets and it's really aggressive and he's flying at you with this pace. So looking at those two styles, you have kind of a passive style of thirds and then you have a really aggressive style of thirds. How do you balance between those two? Are you using both of those? Or do you typically lean into one style versus the other?

[00:09:01] I think if both players are established at the kitchen line, I'll do the more kind of passive one like Andre uses, coming underneath of the ball. But if like you hit a good serve and the people are kind of a little, like a step off the kitchen line or just a little late, that's when you can go for more of an aggressive drop since you don't have to be as precise. So I think it kind of depends on if they're established or if they're not. I always tend to either roll it, kind of like Hayden, obviously not as aggressive,

[00:09:31] trying to work on it. But either that or I'll kind of just push it underneath if they're established, kind of like dead, not as dead as the way Andre uses it since he comes underneath the ball and like cups it and scoops it. It's going to just like bounce higher where I'd say mine bounces a little bit more through. But he has such good resets and counters from the midcourt. I think he almost kind of does that on purpose to bait people into speeding up maybe. Whereas mine, I'm still using it as like a means

[00:10:00] to get to the kitchen line. That's a good point. So you're saying you're able to get away with worse third shot drops if you're super effective in the midcourt because you can kind of let it bounce dead? Yeah, I don't know if it's worse, but like, yes, like you can hit, I guess, more dead third shot drops, you know? But maybe not. Maybe he's slicing, like I haven't, I know the way he hits them, but I haven't like seen how they bounce or whatever, but maybe he hits them more like through

[00:10:30] instead of lofty and then his would actually be more effective because then it has backspin and it's coming in a little bit sharper. So, but yes, I think if you're not hitting aggressive drops, you're almost always going to have to reset. So I think it's strong to be good in the reset area. Yeah, it's almost like there's two ways to go about it. You can either go path number one, which is going to be hitting these dead thirds that are super safe and easier to hit. And then you can then hit a reset, then you're in,

[00:10:59] or try to hit one really good third and then hope to get in there. So it's like, which avenue do you pick? It's almost like a philosophical thing from that side as well. Not really philosophical, but like just an interesting debate of which style you would adapt to and how players adapt to certain styles and do you think that there's one that's better than the other? I feel like if we're looking at a pickleball meta, if you were to perfect one or the other, I think it's better in the long run

[00:11:28] to perfect those aggressive drops because it applies way more pressure and it's harder to control. It can lead to poaching and more dynamic play. But for most players out there, I think it's a really hard shot to hit. Shout out to Igor, who I drill with. And Igor tries to hit these Hayden drops. He calls them Hayden drops. He's been working on them for forever and they're hard to hit. But when he's hitting them, they're hard to handle. They're coming at me, they're snapping, he's flying at me. But then there's moments where he'll go in a slump and he can't hit them at all

[00:11:57] and it's a hard shot. So I guess I'm curious, for you as a coach and you training other players, how would you instruct players to go about this? For our audience, for me, I'm really curious what your thought process is on those two avenues. I would say just make sure you're doing it on the right ball. If you hit a big serve and you have a third that you can kind of step into and they're late getting to the kitchen line, you don't really need to be as precise

[00:12:26] where it's like if they're already established at the kitchen line, kind of like ready to go, it's probably not going to work. They're always going to get it out of the air. I think Hayden really hits the serve and then is like catching the ball on the rise. That's another advanced thing so you have less time. You're giving the person less time whereas if you take the ball like when it starts to drop as like you're taught to, your opponent is almost always going to be at the line. So what Hayden's doing is he's serving big,

[00:12:56] catching the ball as it's still rising and kind of getting people while they're two steps behind the kitchen line. So like I think that allows him to be super aggressive. But still, he hits some good regardless. I think he just plays very confident which has a big role in it. Plays very confident. I mean, if I'm playing against somebody, I'd rather be playing against somebody that's not hitting those aggressive drops because like I said, those are hard to handle. So I think it just depends. I think, I guess the short answer

[00:13:25] that you're saying at least or at least what I'm hearing is you need to have both in your bag and just be able to find a time and a place to use when. So then when are you hitting those safe drops when they're set at the kitchen and locked in essentially? I would say, yeah, if they're like established at the kitchen line, like there's not really any gaping holes. So then I'll go to the middle of the court. But besides that, like just kind of how I'm feeling, like I would say

[00:13:53] it kind of depends on like even if they hit a good return, I'm still kind of confident rolling the drop. So like I'll roll the drop, not super aggressive, but like I'll just hit topspin trying to get it down. So I think just my style, I prefer drops. I wouldn't say, the main thing is I'm looking to be more aggressive when they're on stacking or later getting to the kitchen line. Are you tired there? No, I'm feeling good. Still the jet lag. Yeah, that's got to be a while. That's got to be, that's got to take a while to get used to.

[00:14:25] Really 8.30 a.m. where I'm at. But now it's 9.45 p.m. Oh my God. Yeah. Have you taken any naps lately? No, I haven't. I played like two times today, hit the gym, did videos. You're a machine. I'm doing it all. For anyone listening and not, didn't listen to the previous episode, Tanner just got back from his full three month pretty much Asia excursion. So I don't know how you're not dead right now. I'm ready. I'm proud of you. You're a beast.

[00:14:56] So the thing that you said a second ago was really interesting about catching on the rise because I always teach and I've always learned that we want that ball to rise, hit its apex, then come down and then we get under the ball when we transition to the kitchen. But you're saying for some of the aggressive drops, you're kind of wanting to hit at the apex because a drive, for example, we want to hit at the apex, get that height. So you're saying treat it the same for aggressive thirds? Yeah, I would say one step further

[00:15:27] with the aggressive drops is players catch it on the rise. Eric Onsen's does it, Hayden does it, and it just, all the simple things it just takes time away from your opponent. Like, if the ball's bouncing and then a split second later you're hitting it, like, especially if they're, like, ripping the ball, you know, like, they're going to be near the baseline almost. Not actually, but they're going to be, like, halfway up to the kitchen line. So it's, like, that, it's, like, very minor, but it goes a longer way in, like, these really good players,

[00:15:57] you know? So I think just kind of adding all this to your game, I wouldn't recommend that to anybody unless you're, like, minimum, like, not even 5-5, like 6-0. Because it's very easy to make mistakes with it and pop it up, but, like, if you have really good feel and you really know what you're doing, it can be effective. Okay. So I guess let's dig into that further. At what level should players be focusing on what style of drops? And I know it's a loaded question and it's probably a hard question to answer, but, like, what do you, how would you answer that? I would say

[00:16:27] even at, like, 4-0, like, you should have, start developing, like, both the drops. I don't think, like, an aggressive drop is, like, super difficult. It's almost just, like, a soft drive. You know what I mean? Like, Yeah, it's true. Like, yeah, you're just barely tapping the back of the ball. But, like, yeah, like, I guess at, like, the 4.0 level, 4.5, I don't know, you're starting to recognize, like, when you should take advantage. Like, it's a very basic skill, but, like, requires some, like, like,

[00:16:57] pickleball IQ where it's like, okay, my opponent's late to the kitchen line. I'm going to hit more of a dipping aggressive ball than I am going to push it. Where I think, like, maybe, like, a 3.5, no matter what happens, they're just going to, like, tap it over or drive it. You know, like, there's not, like, okay, they're late, so let me go with a dipping drive, let me roll it. You know what I mean? It's just, like, the same thing regardless. Yeah. Have you seen players, I see this every once in a while, a local player, Matt Baca, does this every once in a while, too, he'll short hop a third, like,

[00:17:27] literally right off the balance. Catch it, is this what you mean by on the rise or you mean kind of, like, right at the apex? Because I've seen people, like, literally short hop and run and then clip it and they're in at the kitchen before you even blink and it's crazy. It's hard to do. Yeah, the short hop, I wouldn't recommend. I think more, like, as the ball's, like, reaching the apex or just before. Yeah. The short hop, Ben actually does a fair amount. Oh, he does, that's right. And I don't know how, yeah, I actually do it too, but, like, it's not good. Like, I'm trying to, I'm not saying I'm like, like that. I'm just saying, like, it's a habit that I'm not, like, trying to do.

[00:17:57] I think I do it, like, when I have lazy, like, footwork, honestly. But I would prefer to not short hop them. I feel like in no world could short hopping the ball be better than, like, taking one step backwards, you know? Yeah, and this is just maybe a mix up just to catch people by surprise. I mean, that's the only time. Just to confuse them. Yeah, and we've chatted about this in another, in actually one of our earliest episodes, maybe even our second episode when we were doing, just talking about dropping in general, the third shot drop. Where are your drops

[00:18:26] typically going? Assuming both players are set. Obviously, if somebody's coming in late on the left side, we're going to be dropping and doing a dippy drop to the left and applying pressure there. Let's say you're playing your typical right side, your forehand in the middle. Where are you going to drop that ball? Are you going middle just because you're taking away angle or do you prefer to go inside out and apply more pressure to somebody's backhand? If both players are set and I'm playing the right side of the court, I like to go cross court to the other right side players' backhand.

[00:18:57] If I'm playing the left side and both players are set, I like to go to that same spot so it's straight ahead to that right side player's backhand just because it's kind of hard for them to produce offense even if you hit a bad shot. So the right side player, no matter what, is going to be getting the drops from you? Yeah, unless you see the left side player has a weakness or if he's cheating over big in the middle, then I would go behind him. But other than that, I would try to just target that one player's backhand. Why their backhand and why not the left side player's backhand?

[00:19:26] Because you're giving them an Ernie and the net's higher, it's harder to get low so they're probably going to be able to flick it. Where the other's out of the middle, it causes a little bit of confusion. If they hit the ball with their backhand, their natural swing path is always going to go. If they hit anything with power, it has to go back to the guy in front of them. They can't go inside out. So subconsciously, it kind of tells my partner, the next ball is coming to you. Or if it comes to me, it can only be soft if it's hit right.

[00:19:57] Okay. So you're pretty much going through the middle relatively every single time but to that backhand spot. Yeah. That's my preferred always. Obviously, I'll try to mix it up but that's default. For sure. That's the default. My default's kind of the opposite. I go inside out because I'm typically left and I'm pushing to the left side player's backhand. I don't like to apply a lot of pressure. But then again, I think middle would, it's either that or middle. I'm kind of 50-50 but I think I need to go more of that inside foot of the right side players backhand for the reasons you said.

[00:20:27] I think that makes a lot of sense. One of the last things that I wanted to touch on, we talked a lot about dropping and even driving a little bit too. But for the transition side of things, what is your idea behind rushing to the kitchen versus calmly, briskly walking in? We see players like Ben Johns looks like he just hits a drop and he's literally walking to get to the kitchen. And then some other players, they'll hit a drop and they're flying at you

[00:20:56] and getting in there as fast as they can. What is your thought process on both kind of styles there from the aggressive versus calm transitioning footwork? I think like maybe just above a brisk walk. When the opponent hits the ball, you want to be in control of your body. If you're in a full sprint, it's probably not going to go over too well. I think it's okay to be in a full sprint if you're hitting a really aggressive drop because they're probably going to pop it up if your ball bounces. So to be able to close

[00:21:26] on that next shot is key. If they're able to take it out of the air or it's more of a dead ball, I would say a brisk walk where you can kind of like stop on a dime and reset. I don't, like I said, I'll like sprint in sometimes if I hit a really good drop, you know, sharp, aggressive and I'm expecting a pop-up trying to just close like a one-two punch. Besides that though, I feel like I kind of work my way in slow, like low like a crab, just waiting to reset

[00:21:55] or cut that next ball and put it into the kitchen and then get in. So like two balls to get in, drop, reset. If I hit a really aggressive drop, I might be able to go all the way in. Yeah, and that's the most common mistake too is when people are transitioning, especially at lower levels, they don't have from the beginning of the episode, like I said, the mindset of just to get to the kitchen. So even when we're mid-court, even when we're working our way in, you might even see a little bit of a juicy ball. Just play the mindset of getting to the kitchen. It'll improve your game every once in a while.

[00:22:25] Sure, if it's really high, take that rip, but it's just not worth it most of the time. It's just going to cause chaos and it's not going to help you get better and work on your fundamentals of keeping the paddle out front, getting low, getting under the ball, and making sure that you're taking that time to get to the kitchen. And then after that, that third or even that fifth that you're hitting from the baseline, I think the general rule of thumb to apply is essentially to calmly make up as much ground as you possibly can until they start

[00:22:54] the motion of their shot. That's a good way to say it. It's perfect. I think if you apply that overall, that's kind of the quote-unquote answer is like, the most commonest thing I see is people going too fast and they're just trying to get to the kitchen, trying to get to the kitchen. It's like, well, just do it. But when you're adding that much pace into your movement, into your footwork, I think that forces people to grip too tight, tense up, tense their legs, tense their shoulders. And that's where I see these high thirds come in,

[00:23:23] these high resets come in, and they're just kind of like flying off the tight handle of their paddle. But when you're only thinking just like you said, a fast, fast, brisk walk, a little bit faster than a brisk walking pace, I think that's kind of the key of making sure that you have that mindset and it forces you to be calm. Your body's going to tell your paddle what to do and back and forth and vice versa. So I think that's a really good point. Yeah, I totally agree on that.

[00:23:54] All right. Any final words, Tanner, in terms of what advice you have for people just to get to the damn kitchen? Am I right? Like that's the way that we need to think about things, I feel like, right? No, you're definitely right. I think just mentally not rushing is the key. Like don't get too worked up or nervous because then you will miss. So I think having confidence getting in there goes a really long way. I think the confidence piece is huge. Even my last tournament, I was missing a lot of drops and I think it was just a lack of confidence in that and I was so afraid

[00:24:23] that they were going to put the ball away if I hit it too high and I was realizing that as the matches went on, it's like, who cares? You might have to hit a third, a fifth, and a seventh. Like that's okay. Just be confident in your shot and calmly work your way forward. Yeah, totally. All right. Love it. I think we covered that really well. Message of the day, only worry about when you're drilling, just drill midcourt, drill thirds, play 7-11, do what it takes to just only worry about getting to that kitchen line. If you get

[00:24:53] to the kitchen line, that's a win and think about this when you play too. Next time you play somebody, remember who won and who lost, ask yourself, who got to the kitchen more and it's likely 99, 95% of the time going to be the team kitchen more. So just think about that. I think that's the most key takeaway here. But yeah. That's totally true. I need more pickleball analytics to break these things down because I think if we see, there's some apps that do that, right? Isn't that like SwingVision and some other apps that really? I think so. Yeah, there's a lot

[00:25:23] that's developing. It's going to change the game. I think it's going to, analytics, I mean change baseball, it's going to change pickleball. You know, it really is. All right. Good stuff to you. Great chat, my man. Bye.