Ep. 314 - Sorry NOT Sorry with Special Guest Coach Kyleen Dye

Pickleball Therapy, Episode 314: Sorry NOT Sorry with Special Guest Kyleen Dye Tony Roig: Hello, welcome to Pickleball Therapy, the podcast dedicated to your pickleball improvement. It's a podcast with you in mind. I'm your host of the weekly podcast, Tony Roig. A pleasure to be with you. This is a special episode of the podcast because we're trying something a little bit different. We're gonna have two folks on this, two coaches on this call, and I'm joined by Kyleen Dye from the TRP coaching team. Kyleen, how are you doing today? Kyleen Dye: I'm great, Tony. I'm happy to be here. Tony Roig: Fantastic. So I'm sure that listeners are like, that's cool. There's another voice now? Is that just this monotone? Hello and welcome to. So that's great. Kyleen, so the reason we actually thought about doing this was because, you know, Pickleball Therapy is all about the mind, all about navigating pickleball, all about enjoying this beautiful sport as well as we can. And the reality is that there are some things that happen, right, that may affect a group of players, that affect that group differently perhaps than other groups of players. I'm not within the affected group directly. But as a coach, we work with a lot of players, and I think as a host of the Pickleball Therapy podcast, you know, I've navigated these in terms of wrestling with them and trying to provide advice. So that's what we're going to do in this week's episode, is tackle some of the issues that affect women pickleball players that sometimes may detract from their experience, may even limit them from playing the sport. So you ready to dive into that, Kyleen? Kyleen Dye: I am ready. Yeah. Yeah. I can speak for that group. Tony Roig: I know. 100%. And the impetus was a comment that we received inside our community. Right? And if you're interested in joining our community, our community is absolutely free to join. You don't have to pay anything to be a part of our community. So just go over to tonyroigpickleball.com. I believe there's a join the community button. If not, you can pick one of the courses or any of the things in there, you'll get an invitation to join the community. Again, absolutely free. But anyway, there was a post in the community. Kyleen, why don't you tee up the post and let's then have a conversation about it? Because I'm guessing that a lot of listeners out there either have experienced something like this, or their friends, their partners, their world, their family members have experienced it. So let's tee it up and see what we can do about it. Kyleen Dye: Alright. So this was from Carol, and she wrote, "Tony, I usually play with a group of women on the weekends, and I noticed a pattern that I don't think is especially helpful. I don't know if it's a thing that happens more with female players or not, but I don't think I hear it as often with men. But the word I hear all the time is sorry. I hear it after almost every shot. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Mistakes happen, especially in pickleball." And I got to talk to Carol about this a little bit earlier today actually, and she kind of went in a little bit deeper. She said, you know, she plays with about 10 women, and she's like, it's incessant. It's after every point, there's almost, there's a sorry. And she's like, you know, I'm trying to say there are no sorrys in pickleball, but it's not sinking in. And I think she's starting to feel a little bit frustrated with it. She's not saying sorry because she has trained herself from it. But, you know, it's happening with her group of women. So worth talking about. Tony Roig: That's interesting. Yeah. Definitely. And I have a couple of ideas. But, Kyleen, maybe, is this something that you're seeing too? Something that you've experienced, or... Kyleen Dye: Yeah. Funny. Well, it is something I've experienced, but I also am seeing this in more places right now. People are talking about it right now in Facebook groups that I've been in. It's a Facebook group for women, and this was a topic. I think it had, like, 100 comments because so many women can relate to this. But, I mean, I went through this too. I started pickleball with a group of women who, we started at the same time, with no experience at all. And even as we got better together, we were still apologizing to each other. And we were like at the same level, doing the same thing, making the same mistakes. It's just, we just kept saying sorry. And, you know, it's something that I've had to train myself to stop doing. And I think it's beneficial if other women out there could train themselves to stop doing it. I'm not saying that men don't do it, by the way, because I have heard a man say sorry here and there, but I will admit I think it is more prevalent in women. Tony Roig: You know, it's interesting because I obviously, you know, I am a man, so I understand that world a little bit better. It's interesting, though, how you said about, like, how you guys started from nothing. So it's like the big bang of pickleball, and a lot of players have that experience where you start with a group, and it's like, we didn't know anything, and then, you know, we grew up together in the sport, which is beautiful. Kyleen Dye: Which, why would we be apologizing to each other then, when we're all doing the same thing at the same time at the same level? It's silly. Tony Roig: Exactly. But I will tell you that my experience in my world is, and there could be other factors that are affecting this, right? I think one factor that affects it when I play is oftentimes, you know, in a lot of the communities I play in, in my local area, I'm the elder statesman in the group, I'm the senior pro in the group, whatever. So there's a little more pressure with my partner. And so I'll get, like, sorry, because it's like, you know, like they let me down with a shot or something like that. And you know, I'm always reminding them that it's not a problem, you know. And I'll tell you a couple ways that I approach it, Kyleen, and maybe you can share what your experience has been or what you think about these ideas. But one thing that I do is I will tell my partner, when they say they're sorry about something, I'll say, I guarantee you, I'm gonna screw it up too. I mean, I'm gonna make a mistake. Right? So if you're apologizing to me for something that's natural and human, and, you know, it's not necessary because I'm gonna do it too. Although I have been guilty of saying sorry as well when I missed, just to be clear. Other thing I was thinking about, yeah, particularly when you have a group, right, like Carol mentioned that she plays in a group, I think it's worth having a conversation at a group level. Right? If it's a group thing, right, then you have like this permission. And you know, we're working on the partner play series, Kyleen. We've been, you know, really working on that the last few days. We're recording this right before the launch in earnest. You know, there's some pieces already, but the launch in earnest of the whole program is happening tomorrow. And one of the pieces is the mental part, and there I talk about creating like a safe space for your group. And I think you can do that, where you get together as a group and you have a conversation, you say, and maybe you make like a funny thing where, like, next time, because they will still say sorry, they're used to it, right? And you have like almost like a, not a safe word, but like a trigger word or something, reverse trigger word, where you're like, sorry, and you're like, Bingo-rama, you know, and it's like, or you know, whatever. You know? Something like that. And then it's like, oh, yeah. I'm not supposed to say sorry. And then little by little, you start doing that. So, one, what's your experience been maybe on that stuff or trying to deal with it? And two, what do you think about those ideas? Kyleen Dye: I like the ideas. I think it'd be pretty funny to get out there and have everybody shouting, like, Bingo-rama. I think that's pretty fun. Experience-wise, you know, it's funny because I noticed this at camp. This comes up at camps a lot for us when we're at our camps. On day one, especially during the morning when everybody's getting nervous and they're just kind of starting, I hear sorry all over the place. And so I'll say to the women, again, I mean, I'm not suggesting that men are not doing it, but I swear we just hear it more from the women. So, you know, the women will be saying sorry, and, you know, it leads us to have these conversations at lunch about why are we apologizing. We're all here learning. None of us grew up playing pickleball. The sport's new. Half, and by the way, we get a lot of women in the sport who have never played any sport at all. We've had a lot of our players tell us that. They have never played a single sport. So instead of apologizing, we ought to be celebrating that they're out there. They're doing this. Right? But we'll have the conversation at lunch, and it'll bring attention to it more. And so then when we go back out there to play, if somebody says sorry, now they're looking at me. And they're like, oh, shoot. Don't get mad at me. So they understand. Once you have a conversation, I think it starts to bring it out to the forefront. You do start to notice it more. And so I like that idea a lot for Carol to go talk to her group and have a conversation about it, bring the attention back to it. And, you know, once you start to notice it, maybe it goes away. So... Tony Roig: And we'll use Bingo-rama. We'll put a trademark on that. We'll definitely start using it at a camp, by the way. Kyleen Dye: I like it. Tony Roig: Bingo-rama is gonna be part of the camp. Speaking of which, we didn't mention this at the beginning, we have some camp days coming up, and we have a women's camp here in Tampa, Florida, where Kyleen and I will be leading a group of amazing players. And there's two camps in that week. One camp is open enrollment. The second camp, I believe it's the same camp, right, Kyleen? Kyleen Dye: Correct. Yeah. Tony Roig: Second camp is a women's camp. We have some spots left. So if you've been thinking about a camp, and it's not just a camp. It's a camp experience. There's a whole thing. If you're not sure about it, schedule a call with Kyleen. She'll get on the phone with you, talk to you about it. You make a decision. Is this right for you, not right for you? Have the information before you make a decision, is what I always suggest. So... Kyleen Dye: And if I may, something about the women's camps. And really, this is just like women in pickleball in general. I know we've been sort of saying, we've been complaining a little bit about the sorrys and the way that we feel. But there's something that's so special about women pickleball groups. And I have found that personally at home. The women that I've met through pickleball have become some of the most important women in my life. And the women's camps that we hold, where we have, you know, just, nothing against men, but it just feels like a safer space. People, you know, the women tend to connect really well with each other. And it's just so special. It's just such a special thing. I hope you guys have that. I hope the men, like, guys, have your groups that you play with and you feel like it's very special, because it's really, really cool. So... Tony Roig: We do. I play with several groups of guys that, just, we have a nice connection between. I introduced hugging to the groups, you know, so I will... Kyleen Dye: Very nice. Tony Roig: Hug my male players, especially the ones who want it, at least. I know it sounds weird, and it sounds like I'm a, it's not. They're perfectly fine because they're smiling. Not in any way. But then, no. But then when I give them the hug, they're like, they're all like, okay. Kyleen Dye: Women won't fight it with each other. We'll just do it right out there in the open. Tony Roig: And I would second that. I think that all of our camps have just amazing vibes. I mean, we get, like, you know, lifelong friendships being created at camps, you know. But, yeah, the women's camps just have a little extra special sauce on them, in how the bonding happens. And, you know, I feel very honored to be able to be a part of that, frankly. You know what I mean? To be able to be a part of that environment as a man, you know. I am lucky, for sure. And it's a privilege for me to be able to do that. So hopefully we'll be able to coach you in Tampa. I'd say, like, in two, three weeks, something like that. Kyleen Dye: It might be three weeks. Yeah. October 22nd and 23rd is the women's camp. Tony Roig: And that is actually a great time to come to Tampa, because the weather's gonna probably be, like, seventies. You can still go to the beach. The water's still warm. Anyway, good times there. So the other thing I wanted to talk about, Kyleen, that comes to my mind, and this is just something that I've encountered repeatedly with players giving me feedback. Right? And this is the idea of, are you good enough to play in this group? Right? And so the story that most sticks with me over my years of coaching in this area was a player who was traveling. And I believe she was in either her late forties, early fifties, traveling, I think, for work or something, or maybe visiting family. Can't remember, but she took her paddle, you know, and she was a good player, athletic 3.5, you know, had played some prior sports, but not pickleball. And she went to these courts and saw there's a group of men playing. Right? And it was like, not a foursome. It was like, you know, there's more than four. They're just kinda hanging around. So she approached, and, you know, good of her, right, approached and asked if she could play. So they asked her level, and she said 3.5. She was honest about it, and they declined. And it's not, they shouldn't have declined, right? And she looked at them, and basically, like, she can hang, right, based on what she was saying, so she wouldn't have interrupted their flow. Anyway, but they declined. So the best I could come up with, right, when I talked to her was, well, I said, next time you're traveling, right, if you make, I'm going to trust your judgment, right, if you make the call, I can play in this group. And they ask you your level, which is kind of a demeaning question anyway, because I guarantee you they wouldn't ask me my level. If I show up to that group, I have my paddle in my hand, I put my paddle down, they'd be like, hey, you, what's your name? Come on in and play. Woman alone, her age, African American. I forgot to say that. So you have all these factors that are like, you know, and so this very, like, well, what level are you? Like, where's your certificate? You know? So what I told her, I said, listen, tell them you're a 4.5. If they ask your level, you're a 4.5. As long as you're, again, I'll trust your judgment. You can play in that group. I'm 4.5. And then when you're done, maybe they say to you, 4.5? How are you a 4.5? Even if you hang, right? Then you tell them, listen, I don't know anything about levels. All I know is my coach, Tony Roig, told me I'm a 4.5. So, you know, and it's not on you. It's not like, you know, maybe I'm not, but that's what Coach Tony said. I'm a 4.5. He rated me a 4.5, and he told me. And if you have a problem with it, here's his email address. Tony@tonyroigpickleball.com. Send him an email, because I never got an email yet. So I will extend that offer to anybody listening right now. If it's a level issue, and again, trusting your judgment, that you look at the group and you're like, yeah, I can hang with this group. You're 4.5. I certify you, so I anoint you 4.5 with my power as a coach, and then let me be the crazy coach who's like, 4.5, I don't care. So what do you think, Kyleen? Kyleen Dye: And I think that women should not apologize for doing that either. You go out there and you play, and you, no. Sorry. Tony Roig: Make it, put it on... Listen. Put it on me, because again, I know that if I show up to that court, they're gonna let me play. Kyleen Dye: Yeah. That's definitely one of the things that I think that we do have to face, is, you know, we women can get, men can just kind of raw power, you know, their abilities, and we have to sort of prove ourselves in other ways. So that is definitely something that we're fighting against. So... Tony Roig: Raw power. 4.5 everywhere I go. 5.0. Let's go. Kyleen Dye: According to Tony Roig. Tony Roig: Raw power their ability. That's a good one. Yeah. And I think, you know, big picture, you know, pulling back a second from the women and men and things like that. This is a sport that everybody should be able to participate in and enjoy. Right? Now, I'm not saying you have a closed group and you're playing and, you know, you must allow anybody who shows up to play all the games with you. I think that's a different conversation. Right? I'm not suggesting that. But particularly, you have somebody, you know, coming in, you've never seen before, from out of town, they have their paddle, they clearly, whatever. You can play a game with them, right? One game, not gonna kill you. I mean, listen, I do it all the time. Was out there, I was filming, I don't know, two weeks ago at the facility, and there's a court next to me, which is, I can't remember if it's intermediate, I don't remember what level it is, but it's like intermediate, let's say, right? They play in the court right next to me. Right? And so they had three players that had been there for a little bit, and the fourth hadn't showed up. You know, it's open play. So the fourth hadn't showed up yet. So I just turned off the camera, and I walked over, and I'm like, you need a fourth? I'll play a game. So I jumped in and I played a game with them. And I'm not blowing them off the court. I'm hitting the ball here, hitting the ball there, making it fun for them, and I'm having a good time. I'm putting the balls around. We're having conversation. So be more open about pickleball regardless of, you know, man, woman, whatever. Be welcoming. Right? Because this is a sport that, I know you were, Kyleen, and I was, we were all welcomed into the sport to begin with. And if somebody didn't welcome us, we never would have played. Kyleen Dye: That's right. Totally agree. Tony Roig: 100%. Alright, Kyleen. Any other topics that you can think of that might be helpful on this special episode of our podcast today? Kyleen Dye: No. But I just think women need to go out there, feel powerful, don't apologize, and play your game. Have fun. Tony Roig: I love it. And again, if we piqued your interest on the camp, right, idea, just book a call with Kyleen. You've heard her on this podcast. Kyleen Dye: I would super love that. Tony Roig: She would love it. She'd love to talk to you. And she's super chill. She's just gonna tell you the facts about it. She'll tell you what the dates are and tell you some experiences. You know, and we even have, you know, former campers who are willing to talk to you, right? Players just like you who feel so passionate about what they learned at the camp with us that they're willing to get on a phone call with you and just share with you their experience. And then you can make your decision. You're like, yeah, that sounds great. Or, that doesn't sound like something I want. Perfectly fine. Right? But then you make a decision based on what the facts are. Alright, Kyleen, we're gonna wrap this week's podcast then. It was awesome having you on the podcast. Kyleen Dye: Thanks, Tony. That was fun. Tony Roig: That was a lot of fun. And we will see you all on the next episode. If you have a minute to rate and review the podcast, please do so. If you have friends of yours, players, particularly if you have women players, right, who are struggling with one of the topics that we covered here, the sorrys or the other thing about, like, oh, I'm not allowed to play with this group. Share this with them, because I think it's empowering to hear from me as a coach, but also from Kyleen as a coach, hear from us and our perspectives, and know that other players go through these things, and there's a way forward, right? There's a way to navigate it. So that'd be awesome. And then, I may have already said this, but rate and review the podcast if you have a moment. It really helps us reach other players. Kyleen, we'll do this again in the not too distant future. I hope to see some of you inside the community or perhaps at one of our upcoming camps. Kyleen Dye: Thanks, Carol, for posting that idea for us inside the community. It was actually a pleasure to dive into this particular subject. Hopefully I will talk to some of you guys on a call soon. So book that call with me. Thanks, everyone. Tony Roig: Until our next episode of Pickleball Therapy. Be well, everybody.