Building Pickleball Before It Was Cool: The Story, The Culture, and What’s Next!

[00:00:25] Hey everyone live, not really, but modified live. This is Coach Tommy Welch of the Smashing Plastic Podcast. And you guys know the face already. I don't have to do a big introduction with this rock star. Lee Whitwell, the one, the only, Gibraltar's finest, the greatest accent in all of pickleball. Please tell all these people that are driving down the road right now who you are, my dear friend. I'm somebody who loves short walks to the fridge. Short walks to the fridge. That's my cardio for the day. That's going to be the title of the podcast.

[00:00:56] That's fantastic. Look, I'm thankful for that lovely introduction, but this is the brains behind everything I do, Angela Farmer, and the one who keeps me out of jail constantly. Every day. Every day I try. Well, let's start with this. Tell us where you're at right now in the wonderful world of pickleball, because you've got so many different hats and so many different angles.

[00:01:23] Everybody knows so much about, you know, all the stuff that you do, but you're constantly rocking and shaking. Where are you at right now with the wonderful world of, we'll call building pickleball before it was cool. And now you're the coolest person on the planet. Where are you at now? How's that working? Now I'm, apparently I'm on a soapbox on hills I would die on and writing articles and seeing who gets mad. I'm so glad. This, the world that we're in right now, that's for sure, Lee. That is, that is for sure.

[00:01:50] Well, it's impressive. The keyboard, the keyboard Nazis are out in full force and it's, I mean, look, part of me loves riling them up, but the other, the other part of me is like 90% of the comments are all great. Right. And I'm glad what I'm saying resonates because our philosophy is let's grow pickleball at the recreational level. That is the heartbeat behind everything that we do. And I'm always, I've always said this.

[00:02:10] I know that the only reason I have a platform is because pro events sit on top of amateurs. So without the amateurs, I don't have a platform and it's always a thank you. I want you to come along on my ride and be a part of our world. Um, you know, 10% don't want to, that's fine. I mean, 90% is a good odds.

[00:02:27] Good odds. It's great. And you're, you're absolutely right because, you know, some things that are misunderstood about our beloved sport are things that you could speak greatly into. Um, but more importantly right now, like you said, for me as a coach and being, you, you know, you're far more superior of a coach than I am this league. But me, from what I've seen in the wonderful world of coaching is there is a shift right now, right? There legitimately is a shift that has transpired with pickleball over the last couple of years. Um, especially I'd say over the last 24 months, it's, it's completely

[00:02:57] night and day. What do you see on your side of things in that? Uh, this is where I'm probably going to ruffle some feathers. Right. And I, I think the, the pickleball world, unfortunately is that there's a mainstream approach to the pickleball world where it's, we're not a mainstream sport yet. You know, we can't have the same approach to tennis, basketball, football, baseball. Uh, yet we're trying to, from a sponsorship model, from a coaching model, from a, from a professional development model, we're trying to force that model into pickleball, which is not a mainstream sport.

[00:03:27] Um, so from a coaching standpoint, and this is where I, um, might divide the coaching community is I'm, I'm a big believer in, in, in correct coaching. Uh, I've had, I've been fortunate of having amazing coaches my entire, my entire life in the different sports. And now what I'm seeing is very well intentioned people trying to help pickleball. And I would be lying if I said, most people spend money on me undoing their bad habits and what they've been taught versus being actually taught correctly and me making them better.

[00:03:56] Um, so I think there's a lot of misinformation out there. And then that is a very dangerous it's, and it's not being pushed out intentionally. Right. And maliciously, maliciously, it's people really wanting to help. Hey, let me help you. Let me, but the, the information, they're either getting it from third party and then it's getting lost in translation.

[00:04:15] So it's not being communicated the correct way. And also from a, from a, from a, from a pickleball pro step coach, pro coaching standpoint is we need to establish that pathway because what part, you know, it's like, and I'm working hard on, and I've sort of developed certification for that. Um, but it's more about, you know, what are the different pathways for a, for a, for a, for a coach in pickleball? You've got your independent coach. You've got your recreation coach. You've got a resort coach. You've got a pro coach. You've got a, a club coach.

[00:04:42] You know, a director of pickleball. Like what do those pathways look like? And, and let's tailor them and, and, and find your lane because a four O coach can be a very good beginner coach, you know, technically tactically, you name it, but it's, it's finding that balance and, and, and, and having people put their ego aside and not getting their feelings heard and saying, Hey, let's make you a better coach because. Yeah. I mean, Steve Kuhn said it best, right? He said, there'd be a lot more joy in the world and more people play pickleball. And I truly believe that.

[00:05:11] So as coaches, we get to grow web boots on the ground. Yeah. And I think, I think pickleball grew faster, um, than the coaching infrastructure was able to. And I also think that, you know, certification bars, I'm just going to say it's low. Right. They'll certify anybody today for any level almost sadly. And so the market's flooded with people who can, yeah, they can run drills, but they can't develop a player. Yeah. As a, as a coach. So, so Lee, a little bit of background on me is I saw my baseball coach first.

[00:05:41] Um, and then I got into pickleball, so I'm still coaching both. Right. So I still coach high school baseball players. I coach pickleball players. So one of the things that I like about that is, you know, baseball is an old sport, right? You're talking about a hundred year old sport. So the way that you do things, regardless of whether, you know, you as a person think that they're right or wrong, there are ways that you can fundamentally play baseball to give you a better opportunity to win just based on statistics on how you can play the game. I feel like pickleball for whatever the reason may be

[00:06:08] is still navigating through some of that stuff. And I'll use one example, just one example of how, how you can choose to use one particular ball at an event. And then the very next event, you're not using that same ball. That's one that's in the pro level. I understand that, but it blows my mind how that's just one thing. And there are a hundred, right? You and I could go through a hundred different variables of how, and how we play a game that is professionally done.

[00:06:37] And it's one of those things to where I do think that we are still 100% in the infancy of a quote unquote professional sport. And I think there's a lot of, we'll call it building the engine in the air as we're like flying to our destination right now. And I think there's got to be grace extended, but when you operate in that world of absolutism, it's like one of the biggest pet peeves for me as a coach to where the way that I coach Lee cannot be the absolute way that I coach Sean,

[00:07:04] right? Like there are two different people. There are two different personalities or two different levels of talent. I could go on and on and on. So when I see what you see, where you have to drop the shot like this, you have to play the transition like this, you have to do the serve like this. And that it kind of ruffles my feathers a little bit because I'm like, you're taking away the beautiful art of the game. Like the game is really kind of cool important pudgy is going to play different than a Diasco who is six, four, you know,

[00:07:33] with a six and a half foot reach at the line. Like they're different players. And I don't, I don't know why the absolutism on how we do stuff in our game seems to be kind of, I don't know. It's an ugly part of what I see right now in the sport. That's for sure. No. And I think a lot of it honestly is, and it speaks to the infancy of this sport as well is I, and this is something that, you know, this ruffles my feathers. It's like, I do not like results-based coaching. I like process-based coaching because what's going to work for your

[00:08:03] body is not the same as mine. And I'm going to figure out how that was going to be best for you. Because if you figure out your process, the results will come and you can replicate that. Right. And then you add that. So we've got, not only do we have results-based coaching, but we also have coaching that doesn't tackle the nervous system, doesn't tackle anything. Right. And then you've got your drill queens, you've got people who are going to be phenomenal on the court and then it gets nine, nine. And they're like, I don't know how to hit a ball anymore. And it's like, the coaches are not their, their EQ, IQ, whatever you want to call it,

[00:08:32] is not mature enough to understand, Hey, we also have to train the mental, you know, it's like Dane had a post this morning and I commented on it. Cause he's like, you know, he's like, give me mental fortitude over technical, you know, brilliance any day. And I'm like, yeah, give me the person at 99 who's not going to crumble. I don't care how they get the ball over. Their process is their process, but I'm going to trust them versus the one who looks pretty, but will crumble at nine, three, for example. It's you're, you're, you're speaking so much language because we're living in

[00:09:02] a world now. I see it. I see it in pickle in baseball in my world right now. It's, it's awful because you have, you have full fledged companies lead that are built to, you know, have Johnny come do drills and measure how they do that drill. And then the following hour, they're posted that they're a top player in the state because they can throw the ball across the diamond with nobody on base,

[00:09:28] nobody hitting, you know, there's nothing that matters, but they're a top shortstop in the state because they can throw the ball from the shortstop to the first base in 8.6 seconds with nothing relative. And they throw it 83 miles an hour, but you put that same player in a game, in a high school baseball game, and the ball is hit to them and they throw it into the dugout because they have no ability to understand how to cognitively feel the heartbeat go up when we're

[00:09:54] feeling that ground ball. I'm using this as an example, but pickleball is the same exact way. You know what I mean? And you're exactly right to where at the end of the day, if you're going to coach on results, the problem with that is one, how are you going to set up the result? So is the result winning? Is it a tournament? Is it APP? Is it PPA? Like what is the result that you're measuring that is going to be, Hey, I'm, I'm good with that. I'm a good coach as opposed to

[00:10:23] the process of it, right. To where it doesn't matter where I, where I play. If Lee coaches me how to mentally deal with the jitters, right. Cause we all feel them of wherever I have that, whether it's Bubba's bait and barbecue 3.5 match for a gift certificate to Chili's or the MLP senior, you know, tour, I need, that's still something that I personally have to figure out how I navigate as a player. And we don't, we just don't see enough of it. There's, it's just not out there. It's just not.

[00:10:52] No. And, and me, I'll take it a step further. It's, I mean, I didn't, you know, you and I have talked about this forever. It's like, I come home and it's like, Oh, so-and-so said their previous coach said, they didn't care how they got the ball over the net. They just wanted the ball over there. And I'm like, that's so wrong, you know, because you can't, I'm a big feelings person, right? It's like, if you're hitting the ball, feel it, feel that A to B to C, know what you're doing, because the more, you know, what you're doing, the more you can replicate. And if you attach a feeling to it and studies have shown it, if you attach a feeling to a process, it's going to

[00:11:19] get into you and you're going to, you're going to remember it and you want to replicate that. But it's, it's the fact that people are not even dealing with the person as a whole. Like your process is not just your technical, it's also your mental and that has to come into it. You can't just, we're not robots, you know, and the older we get, the more crap we bring in from life onto the court. You know, it's like, we've, we've come from work, we've come from this, you know, and it's hard to

[00:11:47] just let everything go. And it's like, well, now I got to show up for Peyton's Barbecue League, you know, and I'm, I've got to play. And this is the last thing, you know, I've had a fight with my spouse or my kids, you know, you know, what my boss is being whatever, you know, and you come in and you're like, now I got to let all that go and do this. And I don't have the time or the bandwidth to do it. Or I haven't been told how to park it because it's still going to be there afterwards.

[00:12:11] But how do I park that to, to now figure out what I need to do? And so, so there's a lot of that going on. And in the rec game, unfortunately we need to spend time on that because we are competitors. You have your weekend warriors, you have your evening week, you've got your, your Monday morning drill, you know, round Robins. And it's like, so they are putting themselves in, in pressure competitive environments all the time, just different from a pro, but it's not different because at the end of the day, you know, and I will, this, I will die on this hill

[00:12:41] because it's like, you know, research has shown it and I've studied it. And the chimp paradox is my favorite book of all times during the sports psych, but the brain just has to perceive it as real for it to be real. So if you perceive that pressure as real, there's pressure. I don't care if it's zero, zero, two. Right. Or whatever, whatever it is that you're playing for, it could be simply playing for bragging rights. You know what I mean? Like it's, if you feel the pressure, then that to me though,

[00:13:06] as a coach, identifying how we teach, train and equip our players in that scenario is really what's the difference breaker, right? Like at the end of the day, if you figure out how to teach, train and equip your players to deal with exactly what you just said, how do I deal with the fact that I just got a text message that whatever it may be, whatever drama it is, right? Whether it's a bank account, oh my God, I'm negative or my kid's late for school, or I've got this amazing rock star who's

[00:13:34] supposed to be on my podcast that's showing up late because she's in traffic. I have to be able to deal with all of this. You know what I mean? I have to be able to deal with this. You know what I mean? Even in the good things, what if you got good news right before you stepped on the court? Same thing. It's the same reactions. Same exact thing. So now that I know that I'm, now I'm going to be a father, but I'm about to compete for the biggest title of my life. You don't think that affects how I'm going to play that, that particular match or that ball game? Like, are we, are we real? I mean, are we serious right

[00:14:03] now? We're not, we're not robots. We can't just like dismiss that. So I love the fact, and that's one of the reasons why I've always listened and watched on some of the stuff that you've got going on and how you teach training to quit. I really do feel like you are shaping way more of just the drop shot and way more than just, Hey, we're going to do, this is what we're going to do beforehand. Like there's so much more to being an overall coach of a legitimate performance player, whatever that level is, whether it's three Oh four Oh five Oh, or we're going pro that's all

[00:14:32] great, but it is still relative to whatever that player is. I mean, and I, I, you know, I hate saying that with age comes experience and wisdom, but I mean, we've talked about it. The bottom line is, is like, we're in our fifties and we're able to now have conversations. And I was always cognizant about the age of like my students and everything. And like, you know what the body can and cannot do. And it's always like, you know, just because from being injured and you're like coming back from injury, you know how to rehab, you know,

[00:14:57] it's so you, you kind of, you're, you know, you, you understand, but you know, we have the conversations. It's like, because we, you know, a lot of, we, a lot of the stuff that we do is women focused, but we're having the conversation because like it or not, we're all going through menopause or teromenopause and there's brain fog and there's hormonal changes and mood swings and sweats and hot flashes. And I'm like, well, if I have a hot flash before I have to start a match, I guess I've done my warmup. Right. Right. Right. Right. That counts. But it's having those

[00:15:24] conversations and making it okay. And giving that space and going, Hey, you showed up. This time is yours. How do we make the best of this time? That is yours for you because you made a commitment and you showed up in spite of everything you've got going on. Now me as a coach, I've got to be, I've got to bring the best out for you and create that environment that you're going to, you're going to survive, not survive, but thrive in and go back and go, I'm glad I took that hour

[00:15:49] or two hours or whatever it was for myself. I love that. And that's, that goes over what you said that was starting though. Like that's such a process mindset. It's enjoying and embracing the fact that it's the process because if it's only the results, and I talk to my ballplayers about this all the time, I don't care what mountaintop it is. It could be winning, whatever you want to name and being titled, whatever you want to be titled. The second that that trophy touches your hand,

[00:16:14] now what? Now what? Right? Like, so if it's result driven and you've gotten the result, what are you going to do now? Are we, are we done? Are we, you know what I mean? Like, but when you're process driven, that's the most exciting part of the development of regardless of whatever the result may be is I am here for the process. I love the fact that I get to wake up and go train with Lee at 6 30 AM when nobody else is doing that. I love the fact that I'm watching

[00:16:41] what I eat right now because it matters to me. I want to be seven pounds lighter so that I can be faster on the court, regardless of anybody else's result. It's for me. I am enjoying that process of getting better. Um, and you know what, this is going to sound, this is going to, this is the truth, but the failing part of it is honestly, it's some of the best parts because it's where you recognize like crap, my service wasn't what I, what I thought my service was, or you know what? I do need to work on my dinking game because I got beat to death on the right side. And for whatever the reason may

[00:17:10] be, I wasn't ready for that. Well, you know what? Now you've at least identified that. You know what? How much better are you now to know? You know what? I got to focus on that. I got some work I got to do there, but the guys and gals that I see in the ballplayers and the picklers that I see that have this result where I'm going to be this number, whatever that number may be 4.0, 5.0, whatever it may be. When you get to that number, you can almost see the letdown because now it's like, now what? Now what? And it's also the fact that when you're results driven,

[00:17:38] like you said, there's that letdown, but if you're process driven, A, the results take care of themselves and B, you're not results dependent because it's your process. Right. And it's like, so then it's like, okay, I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And that's your measure versus, oh, well, I can't believe I lost to so-and-so or I'm a three, five. I lost to a three, too. Like we get so defined by the results to a fault. And I, and I think that has to do also with

[00:18:05] the fact that we have a lot of players. I'll say, let's go 40 plus a lot of players coming into the sport who maybe have been active, who were active for the first time in their life or who haven't been active for a while or weren't an athlete in the traditional sense in high school or college, but they are an athlete now in pickleball because they play pickleball. Right. So now this defines them because this is the first thing that they're latching onto that is giving them an identity because pickleball creates community and community is a sense of belonging, which taps into the basic

[00:18:35] human condition of feeling like we're a part of something. So now it defines them because now I'm part of the four or a group. I'm like, no, you're part of the pickleball ecosystem, you know, and enjoy that. And I mean, we talk about it. Well, I think there's a bigger quote that all of, you know, most people can relate to is it's the, it's the journey, not the destination. Right. Right. Right. And I think that that's where more public can really understand and connect to what we're trying to teach. I love it. And I think personally,

[00:19:00] cause you wouldn't, you can agree now there's this big wave of facilities and clubs and, you know, yada, yada. And, and, and all of it I'm sure is, is great. But as you can imagine, they're also all fighting for how in the world would keep these places open? How, how do we, how do we, how do we keep the lights on with all these different facilities now that we, we didn't once have. And I talk with clubs and I work in a lot of different clubs, but that one statement that you just said is always one of the things that I talk about to where if you really want

[00:19:27] to know how to set yourself apart, be development based, like literally be the place where people feel safe to always come and learn how to get better at the beloved sport that we call pickleball. And that can be the lady that's just starting at two five to the guy that's got this amazing dream that he's going to play for his college team, whatever that may be. If you can truly have a process development hub to where you can give people a sense of, man, this is, I feel like a rock star when I come here. Cause I'm treated like a rock star too. They've got this, I've got this great

[00:19:57] coaches that are tying into me to helping me from whatever it may be. It could be nutrition. It could be mental. It could be the dinking, whatever it may be. I've got somebody that's in my life that is invested in me becoming 1% better tomorrow than I was today. How healthy of that is that for just a human being to have somebody else that is vested into you becoming a little bit better, whatever that may look like. Um, and so many of these places, Lee,

[00:20:24] they ain't got it figured out. They built four walls. They will come. And I'm like, they'll come once. What's going to keep from coming in, build a community. So true. It's so true. It is so true. I mean, I get a list probably every month or twice a month on clubs for sale. I'm sure. Sure. And it's like, it shouldn't be. It's like the model is not hard. Build a community. Yeah. I feel like it's, it's, it's the people right at the end of the day, like the management

[00:20:53] has to know the people. I don't care what software system, what QR code entry, what lighting, all of those things are things I get it. I understand it, but it's the people. If the people feel like they are legitimately appreciated, their people feel like they have people and community connected. You've got the magic. You've got the magic because we all long for it. We all long for it, which is why pickleball exploded. Pickleball didn't explode because it was a ball and a paddle. It exploded because now all of a sudden you've got this magical world called community that we

[00:21:22] didn't have. Right. It's a third space. It is the third space that we belong in. And I mean, like that, we literally built a company on community and that is based on community. And it's based on, you know, you belong here. And we did a clinic at third shot in Reno. And it's one of the most beautiful things because, um, I think it's one of the few facilities in the country. And I will say the world because we, you know, the U S is so far ahead of pickleball from everybody else right now, even though they're catching up where they blend adaptive with able-bodied. Yep. And we did,

[00:21:52] we did two days of clinics and we literally created the large, one of the largest adaptive communities, I think in the world, just from that. I love it. And I think that's a great segue to kind of like, cause me and you could, I can talk shop with you and we'll, if it's cool with you, we'll definitely have you on again, just kind of follow up and see how things are going. But walk me through like some of the stuff that you're, you're truly, and do not take offense to this, but you are legitimately an OG of the space. Like when people think of OGs of pickle,

[00:22:20] you're one of the top three names that comes out. I mean, you know, you've got the Kyle Yates, you've got people that are known as OGs of pickle. What did the pro scene look like in the beginning compared to what you see right now, just so that people have, that are listening, how different, cause I've heard stories, I have heard stories, but you got to give us like, what, how different is it today than it was when, when, when Lee was rocking this,

[00:22:45] this pro scene thing? It used to be fun. It used to be fun. We used to leave it all out there and then go have dinner together. It wasn't angry. The money hadn't been to, the money hadn't come into the point of stupidity. And I will say that, and I'm not saying it because, you know, it's like, oh, you're just saying it cause you're bitter cause you aged out. I'm like, no, I'm not saying it legitimately because we're not established as a pro sport yet. There's no drug testing. We need to

[00:23:12] call our own lines. We change balls every other, you know, depending on the sponsor. Paddle technology is completely out of control. You know, there's no, there's no guardrails in the pro game to the point of we can legitimize it and make it a good, you know, it's still a participatory sport over a spectator sport. There's a lot, right? So it's like, I feel like there came a time when then pro players started getting paid more and more and more and more, right? But the game, the pro game

[00:23:38] didn't, the rules and regulations of the pro game didn't involve with those salaries, right? So then when, when someone's getting paid six figures versus somebody only getting paid five figures versus somebody getting, you know, getting paid 500 bucks or someone not getting paid, like there's, there creates a tension and an animosity there now. And now everyone starts competing for sponsor dollars in the same spaces and I'm worth more than so-and-so and there's throwing under the bus. And it's like, and if you, even if you watch it now, I feel like

[00:24:03] Pro Pickable has sort of shifted into angry pickable. Yeah. There's no camaraderie. There's, there's very little of that. And, um, it's sad because, you know, here we are, but, um, you know, and then don't even get me started on, you know, what we pay reps, which is peanuts, you know? And, and there's no, there's no safeguard measures in the fact that players get to say whatever they want and do to the refs, you know? And it's like, listen, they're not out there intentionally trying

[00:24:30] to hook you. They're doing the best they can. And it's a thankless job and we treat them terribly. We need to do a better job because they don't, they, it costs them money most of the time to be that. Right. You know? So it's like, when you look at that, there's a complete imbalance in the pro side. And I think that is going to trickle down and affect it. But yeah, back in the day, Pickable was, was fun. Yeah. It's definitely interesting just how, God, just within the last

[00:24:58] 24 months, how much that whole scene is different. Like it really is. And it would be, it would be hard for some folks like you that have come from that. And I've heard just some amazing, fun stories. Joey Ferris is a, is a good friend of mine who, you know, has been around forever, right? I mean, just literally been around forever. And, um, it's just interesting to hear where that crazy game was and where it is now. That is for sure. A lot of, a lot of fun was had. That is for sure.

[00:25:26] I remember we were, this was, uh, Oh God, I can't remember how long, maybe three years ago. Uh, whenever the last APP stop, I think was in South Carolina. No, it wasn't South Carolina. I can't remember where it was, but it was Adam Stone, Corinne Carr, um, Joey, myself and Rob Nunnery. And we were out at dinner and we were, we, we had a fantastic time and we all looked at each other and goes, isn't this sad that this is what we've been craving for a year because it's changed.

[00:25:54] This is how it used to be, you know? And it was like, this is going to be one of the funnest memories we're going to take away from the tournament. And it's sad that this now doesn't, it's not the norm. Charleston beat the heat this summer at Pickle Rage, offering a premium indoor pickleball experience at competitive rates. Whether you're a beginner, a grinder, or just looking for a fun night out, Pickle Rage has a membership built for you. Ships start at just $59 a month with discounted court

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[00:26:47] Visit Pickle Rage today and secure your founder rate before it's gone. Let's talk it. The juicy stuff from Lee. She's a, she's one of the OG. So we got it. We got it. We got a plugger for some of this fun stuff. So give us some of the juicy stuff that we've got to hear that only a Lee Whitwell would know. Tell us, bring it, bring us up to speed. We got to know. You want this one? I want this one. Sure, I can talk about it. So we were hired to show up to the national mall of pickleball in

[00:27:13] Washington DC this past year. And Lee shows up, she was the lead pro to be hired. And you know, there was a bunch of PPA players there. Okay. MLP, yeah. MLP player, you name it. And they all know each other from back in the day. And they're all friends. And crazy enough, it was almost as if, you know, there was someone there taking care of their players that it was very clear that PPA was to do everything separate

[00:27:40] from what Lee was doing. Okay. Like it was uncomfortable. And Lee is with APP, but they're all friends. They all love each other. They all want to play and have fun out there. But it was made very, very, very clear that there were separate entities out there and they were to do things separately. Okay. And at different times, you know, and like, they're all hanging out and they just want to like, have a good time out on the court, let them play. Who cares? Right. That event wasn't even about that. Right. Right. You know, it was literally

[00:28:09] a give back. Wow. Yeah. The, the three, the three letter words, it's weird because I don't have a vested interest in either, either entity, right? Because I'm a coach. So I, I coach players from, from both. I've played in both. It's really interesting to me how, um, it is definitely a thing. I didn't realize it was a thing, but it's a thing. Like it is definitely a thing. And it's a sad thing. And sometimes you hope your friendships supersede that and yet it doesn't.

[00:28:37] Right. But I suppose I'm like, look at the FBI, the CIA, I, I just can't get along. Why should APP, MLP, PPA? Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. I guess it's, it's hard for us. It's hard for us normal folks out here in the pickleball world though, just so you know, like it's, it's comical because it's out here. Just, it doesn't matter. Like, you know what I mean? The MLP, APP, PPA, like people, people that play pickleball play pickleball. You know what I mean? Like it's not, yeah, it's not a thing. They love it all. They want to be a part of it all. Yeah. It's,

[00:29:05] it's definitely not a thing, but I don't know. I played in my first APP. This would have been Lee got a couple of years ago. It was APP in Hilton Head. I think we had it in Hilton Head, if I'm not mistaken. Great event, by the way. Uh, Sarah Ansboury, you know, that whole deal was ran down there. Palmetto Dunes, right? Yeah. Palmetto Dunes is great. Like seriously, like one of the, probably one of the better events that I can remember being a part of because it's so big, right. It's intricate. It's, but it's, it, everybody gets a chance to, the way they have it set up, everybody can watch the matches and stuff that's going on. And then you go to a PPA

[00:29:34] event and it's, it's just, it is, it's a different vibe. Like there, they are different. There's different vibes, both good or bad, whatever, whatever you want to take from it. But I, what I'm getting at is I'm a consumer of both. Like I will play in the APPs. I'll play the P like, I don't, I don't really see them as like yin and yang. I see them as like vanilla and chocolate. Like this weekend, there's a chocolate tournament next weekend. There's a vanilla tournament. Like I don't, I don't get it. I really don't. I don't think I ever will. But at the end of the day, it always seems to be about the dirty dollar bill on all of it. Right. It's always going to come down

[00:30:03] to the dirty dollar bill on all of what we're talking about. So, which is unfortunate. But I also think too, that the fact where pickleball is right now, right. It's like, look, it's, you know, I grew up playing tennis. Um, and you know, like Roger Federer is God and he will always be God. Right. Right. Right. It is what it is. It is what it is, you know? Um, but I can pull, I can go out and pull a thousand people and ask them

[00:30:29] who Roger Federer is and they're going to know who he is. Sure. Right. I can ask a thousand people who Emily is, who Ben is, who Catherine is, who I am, who, and they're not going to know. And nor should they, nor should they. That is my point. It's like the pro pickleball is 1% of the whole entire ecosystem of pickleball. Right. 1% shouldn't affect the 99. And I feel like we're destroying the 99% ecosystem and that is what we've got to protect. Yeah. Because that

[00:30:55] is where the magic of community and pickleball is the tournament side, the pro side, whatever, take it or leave it. Right. But right now, people would much rather play pickleball than watch, than watch pickleball. Your diehards will watch or they'll watch points. You know, they're like, Oh, this is the most viewed pickleball video in history has been 20 million times. It was a 30 second clip. Right. That is it. They're not watching games. Even I don't watch games. I'll go watch and they're like, Hey, will you watch me play and coach me? I'm like, yeah, sure. And then

[00:31:23] I'm like, someone talks to me like, should I lost the last seven? What just happened? Thanks coach. I appreciate that coach. You're supposed to be watching my, my backhand here. My backhand. What are you doing over there? You didn't get past them. Sorry. So funny. That is so funny. But, but, but, but, you know, it's like, we've got to, we've got to protect that, that growth of the, of the community and, and keep that because, that is the heart. To me, it's a hot beat of his sport. I mean, Lee speaks to it all the time

[00:31:51] where pro pickleball is built on top of amateur play. Sure. So let's not forget where it comes from and why, why we're still here. Well, I, you know, and to segue, like I always do, but baseball to me is another prime example of this to where little league baseball is the biggest name in baseball outside of major league baseball. Correct. Like if you ask anybody in the world, you know, when they, where you start your baseball career, it's always going to be little league baseball, right? Like that is where that's what we grow up doing. I will never, for the life of me, understand how travel baseball, and I'm a travel baseball coach, by the way. So I

[00:32:20] have a best interest in what I'm saying. I will never understand how all of the showcase travel and everything is now basically superseded youth baseball doesn't exist anymore. It is, you're eight years old going to go play travel baseball. What does that mean? Where are we going at nine years old to call ourselves travel baseball players? Like it is insanity. What, what is transpiring in sports pickle? Um, unfortunately, or should I say fortunately doesn't even have that yet, right? Like

[00:32:50] youth and pickleball is still at the complete infancy of where it should be. And it's already like, I don't know. I, I, it's, it's not flavorful enough. And I see it when we do camps clinics, um, high school pickleball is not a thing yet. Like all of those things are wonderful places where it should be. And I, I get really nervous because I don't know how we can get there without it getting gross. Does that make sense? Like, I don't know how we get there without it being gross.

[00:33:18] Well, no, 100%. Look, I mean, look, pickleball is a sport that started in death, right? By all people. And we're slowly lowering that age. Unfortunately, when pro pickleball came about, that's where it stopped. That's where the development stopped. So we, we started growing it downwards, right? We didn't go all the way to little league or grassroots to grow it back up. Right. Right. Now everyone is so focused on, we need it in the Olympics and you do this. I'm like, no, we don't actually. And let's, let's, let's, let's be honest. We need it in the Olympics when there's critical mass and actually

[00:33:45] countries can compete healthily against countries. Sure. You know, let's, let's, let's get that infrastructure there. But if you get it into middle schools and high schools, your collegiate program is taking care of itself. Now let's get it as an NCAA sport, because if you get it into colleges, you'll get your middle and your high school, that's your feeder. And now you can grow it the other way. But we've, we stopped and now it's sort of, everyone's sort of trying to be like, well, I'm going to do this or I'm going to do this. And now it's, now it's getting ugly because people are

[00:34:14] growing it independently, not together. Yeah. And when you, when you destroy the growth of the sport at the youth level, you've got bigger issues. I can talk into that for 50, a hundred more years, because at the end of the day, that's the biggest problem that I saw in youth baseball is, and you'll think about this now, now you don't only just have little league baseball, but you'll have a parks and recreation baseball, and then you'll have a YMCA baseball. And then you'll have, you, you start, you go from one youth league to now we have nine of them, right?

[00:34:43] We have nine youth leagues and we wonder why we can't build teams because you have nine different places where, where kids can play in pickleball. It's going to be, you're already starting to see this similar where we just talked about facilities. If we have five facilities in Charleston, do you really think five facilities are going to be able to make it in Charleston for, for indoor pickleball? Like it's not going to happen. It's, it's not, I wish it were. It's not,

[00:35:07] we're not at critical mass to where we need a million square feet of indoor pickleball. Let's be real. You know what I mean? So I, I don't have the solutions, but I do know what you said is it's absolutely got to start grassroots. It's got to be that way. It's got to be that way. And don't even let me talk about girls. Lordy day, like trying to get females. Oh my gosh. You

[00:35:33] know what I mean? Like trying to get females, you know what I mean? And this beloved sport is, it's like the hardest thing I've ever seen. And I don't know why I'd love to have your opinion. Why? Where are the girls at? Where are they at? It's crazy. I know. And it's, and then, and unfortunately it's like pickleball is one of the easiest barriers to entry into the sport. Right. I mean, the ceiling is low. Right. If you got a good, if you got a hand

[00:35:59] and one good eye, you're good. Right. Right. Right. I mean, like there's, there's, it's, it takes a lot to get better, but it's, you can start, you can rally. And I, I, cause I think honestly, no one is focusing on the fun of the sport and the development of the sport as fun. They go down to competitive right away. It's like, you know, it's like the travel baseball. It's like, you've got to go into travel. You've got to go and say, first of all, right. You're creating burnout in the parents. Cause now every weekend has gotten, been given up to a nine year old.

[00:36:27] So it's going to probably quit by the time they're 13 or by the time they discover girls. Right. Or it was like burned out. And it's like, there's no youth. And it's like, we've got to give these kids their youth back again. And how do we create these fun youth spaces that we had growing up that don't exist now because it's all in computers where it's all instant gratification. It's all now, now, now, now, now. And we're not creating these communities for the younger generations. Oh yeah. The, the, the lead to of, of comparison

[00:36:54] and then going back to what I said to where now, like every single thing that we do is metric. And then worse than that is posted onto a, a graphic that's put on Facebook. So now that I know that I'm the third in the nation at nine years old, that throws the ball from shortstop to first base, it's like, you know what I mean? Like you literally, you can't even have a conversation without getting into comparison. I talked to your friend, Sarah Ansberry, and she basically told me exactly what I thought that she, by the time she got done with youth

[00:37:20] tennis, junior tennis, she hated tennis. She hated it. And I'm like, I know why I know why, because it's no longer fun. It is 100% result driven and whatever it needs to get the result. But even like we just talked about, Lee, when we started our conversation, even when he got the result, you still ain't happy because now you got next week that you got to do the result again. And if you don't, you're a failure. Well, and what, and even, even worse, think about the nine year olds who like can throw the fastest that, you know, whatever,

[00:37:49] you know, ball in how many seconds or whatever, whatever, whatever. And I'm like, you peaked at nine, dude, nothing else is going to measure up. Right. Because now that is the, that's the benchmark. And it's like, wow, I'm never as good as I was when I was nine mentally on an undeveloped brain. That's a lot of issues. Like that's pressure in itself. Right. And it's like, why are we so focused? It's like, I'm sorry. I remember when I was coaching tennis and it was like, you know, it's like, oh, my child is like, you know, number one and under eight. I'm like,

[00:38:18] I don't care. Right. Like I care when the number one under 16 or under 18, then we'll talk for right under eight. I don't care. And they're like, what do you mean you don't care? You know how much time they put in? And I'm like, well, that's your problem. Yeah. I feel like we could, we could wrap this up with just at the, you know, end of the day, like, so just so you know, the, the motto of my, of my travel baseball team, believe it or not, is, is fundamentals with the emphasis on fun.

[00:38:44] That's the whole mantra of my travel team. Because if you're not in this sport with me playing baseball and we're not smiling and having a fun filled grand time playing baseball, why are we, what are we doing? Like, I want you to be good. That's great. But it ain't, it ain't about that. Like we have to be able to go get ice cream cone after we lose a game just as much as after we win a game. Like it's still, it's still baseball. Like this is youth baseball. Let's, let's calm down. And you know what? Pickleball is the same exact way. I desire more than anything

[00:39:14] for us to find a way. And you, you started with this of just find a way for the fun. Like it's got to be legitimately fun. If it's not fun, then I might as well as do an Excel spreadsheet and worry about financial and, you know, being an analysis today. I don't, I don't want to participate in something if it's not fun. No. And I, and the finger pointing, I think has to stop, right? It's like, nothing drives me crazy in a team environment. It was like, Oh, if you'd have caught that ball, if you'd have done this, it's like, no, no, no, no. We, we,

[00:39:40] we, you know, we went and we lose together. Sometimes it goes away, but if we all left it out there and it's like, and not only that, if you think back to your fondest memories and I grew up in team sports as a kid, it's like, I don't remember the wins and losses, but I remember the dinners and the sleepovers and the ice creams and whether we won or lost, right? It's not about, it's about creating those memories and, and, and having fun and being in the moment. And unfortunately kids nowadays are too busy on their phones and taking photos for everything to actually

[00:40:07] live in the moment too, as well. Yeah. And then they wake up and they're 17 and they've graduated high school and it's all over. You know what I mean? Now, now it's the real world. And you're like, Holy cow, this, this is, this is pretty. And I'm seeing this right now. My son is graduating high school and it's, it's very, very much a perspective moment for me where I'm like, wow, like that. I felt like yesterday we were going to go T-ball and now we're talking about college baseball, right? Like it happens that quick. And I hope and pray that our beloved

[00:40:34] sport of pickle, I, and I, and I had a guy a couple of weeks ago on our podcast talk a bit off, but it really is between you and I, I see it as a, as a form of escapism. Like when I go out to the court, Lee, like I, I like being able to put down the paintbrush and put down the Excel spreadsheet and put down the coach's hat. Like I like to be able to just go, you know, the name of my brand is smashing plastic for crying out loud. Like I like to go smash a plastic ball with some of my friends and have some fun on it. And yeah, it's great to, to want to get better. But at the end

[00:41:01] of the day, like, aren't we, aren't we here just to legitimately have a fun time here playing the sport? Like, isn't that the whole reason why it's called a game? I could be wrong, but maybe, right? That's a big reason why we started the company. It was because women over 40, not for anything to become empty nesters. They have to, you know, we forgot how to play as kids. And as adults, we were told we weren't supposed to play. We were supposed to work. So now we created a platform, not only is it a women empowerment platform, but it's a platform where women actually give themselves permission to go and play again.

[00:41:30] Imagine that, right? Like imagine the ability for you to not have anything other than a focus on, like how you're going to smile today. You know what I mean? Like at this, at this thing, you know, at this game changer or whatever it is. With that being said, I love you. I can't promote you enough. We're definitely gonna have to have you on again. You got to tell Sean, obviously our amazing producer, we call him producer Sean around here, as you, as you well know, we'll make sure that we have all your links, but tell all these folks, we got to give them a tip, right? Like we're Lee, where are you living at? Where are you guys at

[00:41:58] right now? Where are you at? We live all over the world. Yeah. I'm ready to Cincinnati tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're good. We haven't, we haven't called it. We haven't shouted out Cincinnati yet. So let's get, I don't know, Carla from Cincinnati is listening to the greatest podcast in the world. She's got the Lee Whitwell on this freaking podcast. We're going to say she's a three, five. You got to give her a coach's tip of the day. What's one thing that she gets from coach Lee

[00:42:22] that she can put into her cap as she comes hopefully to watch the APP. Get the ball over one more time. Get the ball over one more time. It's that simple, right? We try to be too perfect. And it's like, I always say there's no such thing as, as a bad shot, just bad court positioning for the shot. You may have hit. I love it. I love it from the, from the myth, the legend, Lee Willow. Get the ball over one more time. I'm going to get it. I'm going to get a t-shirt. I'm going to get you a shirt that just says, get the ball over one more time.

[00:42:52] And remember it's a, it's a plastic ball with 40 holes. Yeah. Like, yeah, have fun. Love you guys. Long time. Please stay in touch. We'll make sure we reach back out to you. You've been fantastic. And Sean producer for the love of God, make sure you have all their links, all their goodies. Um, is there any place in particular that you want them to go while I have you on the pod? Is there an Instagram or anything that you want me to send them to? Yes. All our handles are behind bathroom door number two at most public parts. Um,

[00:43:18] and then obviously, uh, our Instagram is game change her events and, you know, mine is lady Gibraltar and, uh, you know, for fun, follow us for, uh, sign up for our newsletter. Yeah. We're doing all over the world. We got some, we got some good stuff at our website. Yeah. You guys have some that game change her, which I love by the way, very, very good play on words there from Gibraltar, the game change her, not game changer. Game change her, um, make sure you guys check that out. You guys have been great. We talk all day and

[00:43:48] definitely have to get you guys back on, uh, in the near future. If you guys don't mind. Absolutely. We should do a live one day and just say, we're going to do an eight hour live seminar and like just let people join. We would be canceled a thousand percent. We're getting canceled, but it'd be so worth it. It'll be so worth it. It'll be so worth it. See you ladies later. Have a fantastic day. Cheers. You too. Thank you so much. Hey everyone. Coach Tommy here. Thanks for tuning

[00:44:14] into smashing plastic. Big shout out to Sean Monahan for the music production and editing. Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe for more awesome content and be sure to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Those links are in the description. Now let's get out there and smash some plastic.